A Large-Scale Fundamental Change to EQ2 - Page 34

Caswydian · 01-14-2008, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaNiaGG

Well then they could make just one class, call it 'adventurer' and we get every skill thru AA?

Going with an entirely classless approach is certainly a possibility. Pre-NGE SWG did something like this, as do many pencil & paper games, like Shadowrun.

aduros · 01-14-2008, 10:18 AM

Or just shut down EQ2, and donate this month's subscriptions to charity.

Illuminator · 01-14-2008, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deson

All you're looking for is moving NPC's? What about dialog or inherent lore like found in almost all the HQ's and signature quests? What about the encounter lore embedded deep into pretty much every high-end DoF raid?Hell, that one even covers your itemization tie in complaint.

You're seriously comparing a 1000+ hour game design to a 40+? You're comparing single player games to MMO's and all you have to say is storyboards? You're talking a total genre design change to even begin to touch that. Wormy laid it out and I one-lined it but again how do you get a personal feel in an MMO?

Storyboards and moving NPC's are hints about the greater problem, but in your predictable rush for the punchline you avoided any depth in your thinking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by methulah

I can't believe we're having a discussion about cinematic gameplay and storylines and character and no-one's brought up Planescape: Torment. Fuck you all. Seriously though, surely... surely Everquest itself is proof that MMOs can give you that knock your fucking socks off "WOW!" feeling that console and other RPGs, especially PNPRPGs give, without the need for scripting and fucking cutscenes.

I'll worry about Planescape when a single friend mentions it. And EverQuest is the problem, not the solution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by methulah

Fuck off, Illuminator, storyboards won't solve any of your problems. What needs to happen is the feeling of real rewards and real risks.

How about you fuck off, and enjoy what friends you have left in this game before they leave too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caswydian

At worst, you can end up like some Japanese console RPGs, with a half hour of animation for every 10 minutes of gameplay,

Being able to advance through what you've already seen is a regular feature. Final Fantasy X left made you sit through all of it, maybe because (A) it was excessively pre-rendered, and (B) it would give away how painfully short the game really was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aduros

Or just shut down EQ2, and donate this month's subscriptions to charity.

Soon.

Caswydian · 01-14-2008, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminator

Being able to advance through what you've already seen is a regular feature. Final Fantasy X left made you sit through all of it, maybe because (A) it was excessively pre-rendered, and (B) it would give away how painfully short the game really was.

That's fine for a single player game, but how would you coordinate something like that in a multi-player environment. For example, a raid encounter starts off with a 2-3 minutes cut-scene. This scene can give some important hints on how to defeat the encounter, so there's a reason to watch it at least once, but if the raid force already knows the encounter, how would you allow them to skip this?

aduros · 01-14-2008, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caswydian

That's fine for a single player game, but how would you coordinate something like that in a multi-player environment. For example, a raid encounter starts off with a 2-3 minutes cut-scene. This scene can give some important hints on how to defeat the encounter, so there's a reason to watch it at least once, but if the raid force already knows the encounter, how would you allow them to skip this?

Hit Esc.

Caswydian · 01-14-2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aduros

Hit Esc.

So, if I hit 'esc', but someone else doesn't, what happens? Would any player be able to cancel the cutscene raid-wide?

aduros · 01-14-2008, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caswydian

So, if I hit 'esc', but someone else doesn't, what happens? Would any player be able to cancel the cutscene raid-wide?

It could be an option available to the raid leader or everyone, it matters not. If someone can't follow a simple command like "everyone hit esc", they have no business raiding to begin with.

Deson · 01-14-2008, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminator

Storyboards and moving NPC's are hints about the greater problem, but in your predictable rush for the punchline you avoided any depth in your thinking.

I'll worry about Planescape when a single friend mentions it. And EverQuest is the problem, not the solution.

How about you fuck off, and enjoy what friends you have left in this game before they leave too.

Being able to advance through what you've already seen is a regular feature. Final Fantasy X left made you sit through all of it, maybe because (A) it was excessively pre-rendered, and (B) it would give away how painfully short the game really was.

Soon.

You still have yet to lay out what the grand idea with storyboards is or how it relates to the discussion being had before you brought it up. Explain what you are getting at and it can be discussed, until then rush for punchline is all you are going to get because you've offered no depth.

Why does a friend have to mention Planescape? You never played it? It's easily as relevant as your other game mentions if not more;the comment didn't even warrant a reply- certainly not the one given.

So Illuminator, you actually going to grace us with an explanation of how storyboards and cinematics fits with the OP and how they would solve the problems of a game that generates most of its complaints from it's mechanics?

Caswydian · 01-15-2008, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deson

You still have yet to lay out what the grand idea with storyboards is or how it relates to the discussion being had before you brought it up. Explain what you are getting at and it can be discussed, until then rush for punchline is all you are going to get because you've offered no depth.

Why does a friend have to mention Planescape? You never played it? It's easily as relevant as your other game mentions if not more;the comment didn't even warrant a reply- certainly not the one given.

So Illuminator, you actually going to grace us with an explanation of how storyboards and cinematics fits with the OP and how they would solve the problems of a game that generates most of its complaints from it's mechanics?

What I see a move towards a more cinematic style of game design, with a greater emphasis on story lines and dramatic sequences. Perhaps it also represents a move away from the number-crunching side of MMOs, towards a system that looks at your characters as people who inhabit a world. For example, imagine an MMO with a functioning system of ethics - where a large part of what you are capable of doing is determined by how you act. If you want to be a paladin, you'd best act like one, and you cannot expect to be a great healer if all you do is kill things.

Further, I tihnk complaints of this sort about mechanics are actually deeper criticisms of the staleness of the MMO genre. People look to mechanics changes to fix what are really much more severe issues. People want something new, but don't yet know what, and so they get hung up on what they don't like, but cannot really find a way to express what should be done differently.

Deson · 01-15-2008, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caswydian

What I see a move towards a more cinematic style of game design, with a greater emphasis on story lines and dramatic sequences. Perhaps it also represents a move away from the number-crunching side of MMOs, towards a system that looks at your characters as people who inhabit a world. For example, imagine an MMO with a functioning system of ethics - where a large part of what you are capable of doing is determined by how you act. If you want to be a paladin, you'd best act like one, and you cannot expect to be a great healer if all you do is kill things.

Further, I tihnk complaints of this sort about mechanics are actually deeper criticisms of the staleness of the MMO genre. People look to mechanics changes to fix what are really much more severe issues. People want something new, but don't yet know what, and so they get hung up on what they don't like, but cannot really find a way to express what should be done differently.

Sounds like Planescape, part of what I why I said "perhaps more relevant" in my post.Maybe that was what he was getting at but, since he played the wiseman game and didn't elaborate, instead focusing on a minor design point, I refuse to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I myself don't have much an issue with EQ2's layout. Many encounters are full of inherent lore and questlines are pretty good when you sit and read them. My problems with the game come more from classes clearly being outshined by their counterparts and a design that seems to have been based entirely on numbers instead of actual moves that work. Even if an MMO were to shift as you describe it'd still have to avoid the same mechanical mistakes EQ2 made, chief amongst them being soulless numbers based design. Even if they were to switch right now and make EQ2 like that there would still be the diminishing returns issues, the class issues and other general feel problems with mechanics.