Should contested Epics even be bothered with? - Page 45

Caswydian · 12-11-2007, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScareCrow144

Maybe not at first but once they learn the class, yes. Any hardcore raider that has ever leveled up an alt will verify this. There are just some people that can play a game better than others.

Are those people necessarily raiders, however? If skill is what should be rewarded, why shouldn't an equally skilled raider and solo player receive the same rewards? Why should a mediocre or even poorly skilled raider get rewarded more than a skilled soloer or grouper?

Quote:

The biggest thing hardcore raiders have over others is being able to react and pay attention. Following a script doesn't do much when your mt gets double attacked for 24k. The people who can adapt are your hardcore raiders and the people who freak out and freeze up, well, thats probably Alesis territory.

How often do raids really recover against something like that? If the MT goes down, that's usually a wipe, unless it's an encounter that calls for multiple tanks, in which case you prepare in advance for such a situation.

ScareCrow144 · 12-11-2007, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caswydian

Are those people necessarily raiders, however? If skill is what should be rewarded, why shouldn't an equally skilled raider and solo player receive the same rewards? Why should a mediocre or even poorly skilled raider get rewarded more than a skilled soloer or grouper?

How often do raids really recover against something like that? If the MT goes down, that's usually a wipe, unless it's an encounter that calls for multiple tanks, in which case you prepare in advance for such a situation.

Your hypotheticals don't reflect what really happens in the game. The "poorly skilled raider" and the "soloer or grouper" are usually the same person. The people who can do both well get the rewards.

As to the second part: Are you trying to say that an OT that can grab aggro quickly and save the raid vs. one who can't does not involve any difference in skill, and is just part of a script? I'm starting to think you are really a raider and are just fucking with us.

Kungao · 12-11-2007, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caswydian

Are those people necessarily raiders, however? If skill is what should be rewarded, why shouldn't an equally skilled raider and solo player receive the same rewards? Why should a mediocre or even poorly skilled raider get rewarded more than a skilled soloer or grouper?

How often do raids really recover against something like that? If the MT goes down, that's usually a wipe, unless it's an encounter that calls for multiple tanks, in which case you prepare in advance for such a situation.

since i am to lazy to split it up, as a first, raiders should ALWAYS get a better reward simply because they got 24 people to show and do what they should do (and trust me, unless you ever lead a raid of any kind ya know how bloody tough it is to have everyone do their thing and do it well). that and raiders generally are more skilled and usually (i say usually cause there are very funny exceptions, mrs hide behind the piano to not get agro/block the ae for example :P)

as a second if you wipe because your mt went down get a better offtank, our mt went down plenty the other night in protectors realm and we still killed the nameds we set out to kill (short of a very nasty ae-er who one shot most of the mages, still working on positioning for it) but even than were just a simple casual raid guild who do the thing we like when we like it (3 nites a week aint very hardcore is it :P)

and to get back on topic, on our server, unlike most, all contested (atleast last time i checked) from t7 to t8 are locked, permanently.
and despite the multi guild lock (we got alot of guilds that can easily clear t7 eof contested, including ours if we would get the chance/would have the force online to pull) not that that matters now, still everyone can pull if its up and get the general strats from other guilds from just observing their kill. And if ya dont put in the bloody effort dont whine, most people dont except the little crybabies who still get breastfeeded by their mummy and use daddies credit card to buy plat cause they cant farm it themselves.

Qayr · 12-11-2007, 05:56 PM

Logic does not live on planet Alesis.

Illuminator · 12-11-2007, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kungao

as a first, raiders should ALWAYS get a better reward simply because they got 24 people to show and do what they should do (and trust me, unless you ever lead a raid of any kind ya know how bloody tough it is to have everyone do their thing and do it well).

This reminds me of when the Guinness Book of World Records stopped accepting submissions from people who did dangerous stupid shit like digesting entire bicycles a piece at a time. Sure, those kinds of records were harder than what most people would care to endeavor but it wasn't something they wanted to encourage.

Mendanbar · 12-11-2007, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caswydian

Why is this? Are there really only 50-60 players per server that are good enough to take down this content?

However, you missed my point, which is that the situation you've described on your server is one where barely 2 guilds have a shot at contested encounters. What would happen if there were 5 guilds that were capable of taking out contested encounters? Could the game support that? What if there were 10 guilds?

To put it another way, what is the maximum number of guilds that contested content could support? By support I mean present all the guilds with a reasonable chance of killing one or more contested encounters per spawn cycle? Your example would lean towards maybe 2 guilds, but that's a stretch, as one guild has the encounters locked down, and your guild gets the leftovers. A third guild would get nothing.

This is a pointless argument. For every 1 good raider there are at least 99 shitty players on a server. To get that many people that could form up that many raid guilds, SoE would have a lot more subscriptions and could hire more devs to make more contested content, which would be absolutely awesome, imho.

pagansaint · 12-11-2007, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caswydian

Raids require lots of training via repetition, but this should not be confused with actual skill in playing the game. Rather, the skill is in following a script or following orders from the raid leader, who is following the script.

Raid guilds also tend to have much more strict class and AA spec requirements, and such an autocratic leadership is not something many players want to subject themselves to.

That is entirely true for the lesser encounters.

When you get to the top end, you either have people with the skill to time their current cast time to get that cure/rescue/ToS/whatever off right as the mob does xxxxx, or have the ability to flow back and forth between doing their primary job, and for instance, targetting adds ONLY they can see that the rest of the raid force needs to kill.

Most raid guilds that are hugely successful are not strict on how their players spec their AAs or equip their toons.

Those guilds are successful because the individual players know how to kit and spec themselves to succeed at their roles.

Everything you posted right here is just more propaganda of the likes Alesis is trying to spread through all of the players who don't know what it is actually like.

The mob will believe a lie that confirms their worst suspicions, but will vehemently fight a truth that goes against common gossip.

Prof · 12-11-2007, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminator

This reminds me of when the Guinness Book of World Records stopped accepting submissions from people who did dangerous stupid shit like digesting entire bicycles a piece at a time. Sure, those kinds of records were harder than what most people would care to endeavor but it wasn't something they wanted to encourage.

And that decision made irate the guy just a pedal away from breaking the record. Bike eaters would still eat bikes even if there was no guiness record for it, and only the removal of bikes would stop it. Bike eaters would then move on to other venues... perhaps eating ATV's.

Mendanbar · 12-11-2007, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alesis

And thats the 3rd guilds fault, because they didnt pay enough dues apparently. A reasonable chance isnt really possible though, if like on my server, you have say, 3-4 guilds (I dont know really, but we have some good crews on Unrest who I think have a shot) capable of killing the thing, and your in one of say 5 younger hungrier guild with casual play requirements that would love a chance to kill the thing, or at least try it, but when you show up to pull it, you find 3 guilds there with kill experience racing to pull it out from the noses of each other so they can fuck the guild next to them. Its just a retarded system.

What happens is the guild with the most practice gets to lock down the mob MOST of the time, and the 2nd place dudes get the scraps. If a 3rd place guild is lucky enough, they MIGHT get a shot at pulling the thing a few times in 6 months, and if theyre lucky they can kill it before one of the bigger fish comes and ganks thier attempt to learn the thing.

That leaves 3, maybe 4 guilds on my server with no hope of ever seeing that content, ever. O yeah, sorry, I forgot, thats thier fault. They shoulda tried harder. Why werent you there from the begining? Why werent you there first to practice until we came and took it away?
Gimps!

An Instance solves this, plain and simple, to bring this back to the original topic.

I guess id be arguing for keeping it the way it is, if I had everyone else locked out of the fight too. The "haves" and the "have nots" syndrome I guess.

You dont see George W. Bush giving a fuck about the have nots, because hes a have. Those of us who could, but dont have the chance, want to do what those of us who could, and had the chance to refine the technique, can do. We are whiny posers, and need to manage our time in game more efficently, I understand that now.

/shrug

Ironicly, I get like 2-3 tells a day from all sorts of different people on my server who are like "I saw what you said on eq2 flames, and your right really, but arguing with the "haves" is pointless." And you know what? Theyre right! The sense of entitlement that the top of the food chain carries with it will never, ever let those cats understand that some of us would like a chance to check out that content too, even if our level of "in game dedication" wont let us. I remember in EQ1 when you came up on say, The Avatar of War, and it was camped and being pulled, your scouts hit the ground running looking for the next one, and you let the guy who got thier first do his thing, maybe leaving an alt there to make sure they got it killed before giving up. Not so in this game. This game, you fuck each other over, with no respect, spit on the corpse of the mob you just pulled out from the other guy, and tell him "better luck next time bitch".

You have opened my eyes. Im gonna get off my ass, stop paying attention to so many of these "real world" responsabilities, and get my priorities in order. Ill hire someone to come and teach me better time management skills, tell the management team at work I cant be bothered with any more late nights, get my wife to stop nagging about all the household chores, and just focus on what I need to so that I can experience this content. EQ2 and RoK.

I gotta figure out how it is I dont have all this uberness on lockdown in 3 hours played a week. I must need an EQ2 tutor or something.

Cry more and try to play the RL card some more, but that still doesn't get beyond the fact that you apparently can't stomach competition. Let's just say "fuck all sports". We'll just make 5000 Stanley Cups, one for each person in the NHL, because goddamnit, they should all experience what it's like to have it.

When you have a competition, there is something known as a winner, and something known as a loser. That rush of competing, challenging another guild, and winning is why people want contested. Great, someone can beat it first, but that doesn't mean shit week after week. It's about the fight, and without that, and the mobs in instances, that ruins the entire point.

What the situation should be is that they should ideally have zones of all types and for all skill ranges. Easy solo zones, harder solo zones, easy heroic content, harder heroic content (like old Nizara), easy raid zones, harder raid zones, and a bunch of contested for people to get some competition out of. With enough instanced content, this wouldn't even be an issue. Guilds that want the direct challenge of competition could do the contested mobs, while there could still be plenty of instances to keep guilds that aren't interested in competing entertained. Trying to force people out of an entertaining style of play because you're jealous though is pretty lame.

And I really am serious, if you're going to bitch about SoE for not bending over backwards to let you do exactly what you want every second that you want it, I hope you treat every other instance of a CHOICE that you made not allowing you to do something else the same way. Yes, you're married, we get it. Do you go cry because you can't screw other women now? You made the choice to spend your time the way you had it and arrange your life the way you had it. Don't expect everyone else to bend over backwards to accomodate you.

To be honest, I'm kind of shocked by the details you say about your life, I'd have pegged you right around 24-30, with all the other fuckwits in my generation that have grown up with parents totally entitling them to everything and telling them "absolutely, honey, you're the best!" while not having any actual kind of competition to back it up.

Hooray for idiots that need to play sports where they don't keep score. That might hurt feelings!

Skel · 12-11-2007, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malacai

For the OP, let’s leave contested epics as contested shall we and instead find a compromise?

No Time to Earn the Rewards Associated with Contested Epics?

Contested Should be “Instanced” or In a Box?

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Contest/ed as Defined by Merriam-Webster (Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary 2007)
intransitive verb: STRIVE, VIE ~ transitive verb: to make the subject of dispute, contention, or litigation; especially : DISPUTE, CHALLENGE

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