Should EQ2 Developers Be Allowed To Join Raid Guilds? - Page 12

Gaige · 12-17-2007, 11:32 AM

My opinion on the matter is that it wouldn't be an issue if people were trustworthy. Unfortunately, most people are not.

Since high end raiding is similiar to a competition in that kill rankings are somewhat tracked, I don't think devs should actively play in those guilds who are considered to be competing on a WW level.

Its like any other contest, if you work for the company doing the contest you and your family can't participate because its a conflict of interest.

For every dev out there in a high end guild who will wipe for 5 hours a night everynight without saying anything at all, there is one who will get sick of the wiping and give hints that a normal player couldn't know until the content is defeated.

That is why its a problem.

The temptation shouldn't ever be put there.

Another problem with letting devs play in high end guilds is that a lot of devs used to be just players. Ask yourself, if tomorrow you suddenly had inside info... would you be able to keep quiet about it? Imagine going from player to dev overnight, what those changes would entail and then ask yourself if you could play the game the same way that you do now.

LFG · 12-17-2007, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaige

My opinion on the matter is that it wouldn't be an issue if people were trustworthy. Unfortunately, most people are not.

Since high end raiding is similiar to a competition in that kill rankings are somewhat tracked, I don't think devs should actively play in those guilds who are considered to be competing on a WW level.

Its like any other contest, if you work for the company doing the contest you and your family can't participate because its a conflict of interest.

For every dev out there in a high end guild who will wipe for 5 hours a night everynight without saying anything at all, there is one who will get sick of the wiping and give hints that a normal player couldn't know until the content is defeated.

That is why its a problem.

The temptation shouldn't ever be put there.

Another problem with letting devs play in high end guilds is that a lot of devs used to be just players. Ask yourself, if tomorrow you suddenly had inside info... would you be able to keep quiet about it? Imagine going from player to dev overnight, what those changes would entail and then ask yourself if you could play the game the same way that you do now.

You raise very interesting points, all related to the appearance of impropriety, even if not proven.

Most professional ethical standards are based on avoiding both actual impropriety AND the appearance of impropriety.

Clearly, a dev in one of the top 5 or so guilds competing for WW1sts would raise an appearance of impropriety, even if the dev's personal morals were pure as the driven snow.

I guess I change my answer to "devs should avoid the appearance of impropriety (and thus be immune from all claims of favoritism and other misdeeds) by not being guilded in top EQ2 guilds that are actively competing for WW1sts or to be #1 on their server.

The potential cost to EQ2 and individual dev careers is too high otherwise.

NOTE: I absolutely have no objection to devs being in "regular" EQ2 guilds, the type with people who raid several times a week even but aren't trying to be #1 on the server or WW, and I applaud those devs who take their personal time to play the end game in EQ2.

Ripzz · 12-17-2007, 12:01 PM

So if devs aren't raiding high end mobs, how the fuck are they gonna know how to design them - what's too easy, what's too hard and what's just plain bullshit?

LFG · 12-17-2007, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripzz

So if devs aren't raiding high end mobs, how the fuck are they gonna know how to design them - what's too easy, what's too hard and what's just plain bullshit?

I think they should raid high end mobs, and should be in guilds.

I'm just saying, I don't think they should be in the #1 guild on a server. That is a problem waiting to happen. The problem will result from either actual impropriety, based on the reasons Gaige detailed above, or THE MERE APPEARANCE of impropriety, based on someone unfairly accusing them or their guild of participating in misconduct.

Those potential problems cannot occur UNLESS there is the potential for jealously from another guild based on competition.

That competition, and the jealousy and potential problems, are virtually certain to be raised when a dev is in a guild competing for #1 status on a server or WW, when someone from outside that guild finds out the dev is a member.

Those problems are unlikely to occur, because they aren't nearly as important, for devs playing in more casual guilds. A guild that raids end game content is not always the #1 guild on a server. Many servers have multiple guilds capable of killing end game content. I'm merely saying that if I were in the position of a dev, I'd want to keep myself from being in the position where I could even get accused of this type of wrongdoing. I do not think that any EQ2 dev is guilty of any wrongdoing, I'm just saying, why even put yourself in the position where you can be accused of shit.

Choadley · 12-17-2007, 12:26 PM

There are some middle of the road guilds that, with Dev inside information, could become high end/competitive guilds. So...if they are allowed to raid where do we draw the line?

aduros · 12-17-2007, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripzz

So if devs aren't raiding high end mobs, how the fuck are they gonna know how to design them - what's too easy, what's too hard and what's just plain bullshit?

Your right. God forbid they actually use the Test Server, or conduct BETA TESTING.

Ripzz · 12-17-2007, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Choadley

There are some middle of the road guilds that, with Dev inside information, could become high end/competitive guilds. So...if they are allowed to raid where do we draw the line?

There is no line. If we allow them to raid - any guild has the server to become the next best guild on the server, and if that happens - are they forced to leave? What determines who is the best guild if multiple guilds are clearing contested and instance content regularly? The answer is either limit them from joining raid guilds at all, or let them join whatever they want. Even if they were limited, there would be no way of stopping them joining a raid guild on a private account, nor would there be a way of proving it. If they were limited, how the fuck will they know how to design raid content?

Choadley · 12-17-2007, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripzz

There is no line. If we allow them to raid - any guild has the server to become the next best guild on the server, and if that happens - are they forced to leave? What determines who is the best guild if multiple guilds are clearing contested and instance content regularly? The answer is either limit them from joining raid guilds at all, or let them join whatever they want. Even if they were limited, there would be no way of stopping them joining a raid guild on a private account, nor would there be a way of proving it. If they were limited, how the fuck will they know how to design raid content?

Exactly my point.

Ripzz · 12-17-2007, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aduros

Your right. God forbid they actually use the Test Server, and conduct BETA TESTING.

Name one guild on Beta that clears high end content regularly. Even if there were one, having all the devs join that one guild would just be dumb. If the devs tested it themselves - it would also be dumb since they already know the encounters since they designed them and would most likely still have their dev powers. If you're inside a raid guild, and you're seeing the feedback from real players in a real raid in /gu and playing with other players that actually raid regularly - you know exactly whether that encounter sucks or not.

LFG · 12-17-2007, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Choadley

There are some middle of the road guilds that, with Dev inside information, could become high end/competitive guilds. So...if they are allowed to raid where do we draw the line?

I don't know. All I know is that in the realm of generally accepted professional ethic standards, one avoids both actual impropriety, and the appearance of impropriety.

I think that if a dev joins any guild, and another guild that thinks of the dev's guild as competition finds out about that, they stand a very high risk of being accused of winning based on inside information. Let's face it, this is just how many players are.

This needs to be worked out by SOE and by devs based on the differences present in each individual situation.

Devs should definitely be applauded for playing the end game, because that unquestionably makes it better. They just should never put themselves in the position where they run a high risk of being accused of improper behavior. That just isn't smart, and I know that all the devs I've personally met are very smart people.