Should EQ2 Developers Be Allowed To Join Raid Guilds? - Page 14

aduros · 12-17-2007, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripzz

Whether a policy was enforced or not, devs would still play toons in high end raiding guilds.

If a policy was in place and they were caught:

I seriously doubt they would be willing to risk their jobs over some fabled gear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Layra

Test servers will never have a permanent high end guild there, for the exact reasons that this thread relates too. A 'high end' raid guild on a test server will never be accepted as 'high end' because they get the one week advantage and whatever on mobs and will get accused of all manner of bullshit just because they are on test. Copying characters there just to test shit? Again why waste time testing and getting loot for an 'alt' when you can be on live getting loot for your main.

First off, you don't need a 'high end' guild to test raid mechanics, and raid encounters aren't tuned for the 'high end' anyways.

Secondly, you better believe there's alot of people that would jump at the chance to have their toons copied over. Especially if it meant finding a fix for issues that people have been posting about for months. Not everyone is as selfish as Thou.

Auroz · 12-17-2007, 01:15 PM

This may have been mentioned because I did not read every single post word for word. Yea I suck, but anyway

I would actually assume MOST devs wouldn't advertise they are a dev when they join a guild. Obviously some do since people mention certain guilds with supposed devs in them-

However, I have had 2 people at SoE tell me they play the game and are a part of a guild SECRETLY. I thought it was obvious why a dev wouldn't say he's a dev- he would be bombarded with flames regarding changes, every single bug, and every single complaint and suggestion. If they are making a toon for fun, (that ISNT their god mode toon (the one guy who went into detail about his secret guild life said his 'known' soe toon was on a seperate account from his play toon-) if they are playing for fun, why would they admit they are a dev and invite people to bombard them with soe/development tells that would suck away the enjoyment of leaning back and playing the actual game and not working during your play time?

I guess some devs have been open about their job, and thats when eq2flames like drama happens about favortism and special raid guilds having leet strats... but think about all the SECRET soe toons that haven't spilled who they are..

Why ban their enjoyment of the game because of a few?

And I do think it is beneficial for a dev or soe employee to play the game, and even raid in a 'high end' guild because that gives them insight into the game, and the one thing I can't stand is thinking about people working on eq2 that don't even play the game.

Talonis · 12-17-2007, 01:20 PM

It is a good thing to have devs playing the game live. Period. They see what we see and experience the same things we do. It makes sense.

I agree that the burden is on those devs to maintain their ethical professionalism by working overtime to remain 'anonymous'. There should never be any inside info, or stuff like that. They should never give any hints or reference what server they play on while posting on the forums. Just play.

[minor derail with a point] The bigger question is what ever happened to software QA? It's a bad idea to have the playerbase testing content at such incomplete stages of design. I'm sure it has far more to do with the almighty dollar, but you'll have to forgive me for calling bullshit on that. Bad excuse. Why should any dev ever be put in the position of 'needing' to help or offer hints from the inside? It is the failure of the bigger-picture design process. The biggest thing a live-playing dev should ever have to think about is how much dkp they have. They shouldn't feel the pressure to divulge their identity or development association with the game. My point being they wouldn't have to if we were talking about a product that was much closer to being polished and complete.

The bottom line is test your own shit and then send it to beta. Beta testing by non-employee players should be on essentially finished and tested content. That is the point. All of the abilities, AE's, and even the loot table should be done before a non-employee player ever sees the content. That is software QA. I guess it's kind of slick and economical to have your stuff tested by people that are paying you, but it shouldn't be the standard practice. It's cheap and lazy. Three years of results speak for themselves. Heck, we've even accepted it as 'the way things are'. That doesn't make it right though. [/derail]

Granted, there are certainly people that can't keep their yaps shut. A stronger stance by the company they are employed by would alleviate this. Take a hard line stand and ensure your employees are aware of the dire consequences of revealing who they are if they choose to play the game they help create.

All that being said, I think we all know that guilds who have SOE employees playing in high-end raid guilds or players with inside contacts open themselves up to the basically unforgiving and sometimes tinfoil-hat legion of public opinion in places such as EQ2Flames. Live with it.

I don't think devs should be restricted to not being able to play the game in any way shape or form, but there should be dire consequences from SOE if they divulge who they are or offer anything a regular player cannot find out by reading the boards or playing the game.

Layra · 12-17-2007, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aduros

First off, you don't need a 'high end' guild to test raid mechanics, and raid encounters aren't tuned for the 'high end' anyways.

Secondly, you better believe there's alot of people that would jump at the chance to have their toons copied over. Especially if it meant finding a fix for issues that people have been posting about for months. Not everyone is as selfish as Thou.

First point, if they weren't 'high end' half if not all of their comments would be ridiculed by 90% of the 'high end' people on this site because as we all know if you don't kill contested you can't possibly know shit about EQ2.

Second, I will beleive it when I see it. If Guild A was helping test mobs and Guild B was not, then the moment shit goes live, Guild B will cry rivers that guild A only beat them to the kill because they were on test.

In an ideal world where people put the game before the image of being 'uber big epeen' guys cos they got the first kill then sure. Until then I don't see it as feasible. A /testcopy feature may help fix some minor bugs with spells and such but it won't solve world famine.

Kelenved · 12-17-2007, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LFG

I think it would suck ass to only raid with people you work with. If you did that, you couldn't call anyone a dumbass.

Half the fun in these games is socializing. What you've described above is work, not fun.

That was my point, SoE employees at work, not play. Using existing characters/guilds to test and tune raids to the level of difficulty they actually intend. Most seem to think its a good thing to have the devs playing and seeing how shit really goes down rather than how it looks on paper ... this idea imo solves that while at the same time removing the chance at favoritism etc.

Devs in live server guilds are the eq2 equivalent of insider trading. The "it's just a game" idea fails in this case. Checkers is just a game. When you pay a monthly fee to do anything you presume the playing field is level and that talent and sometimes pure dumb luck affect the outcome, not who the other player knows.

Choadley · 12-17-2007, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LFG

I think it would suck ass to only raid with people you work with. If you did that, you couldn't call anyone a dumbass.

Half the fun in these games is socializing. What you've described above is work, not fun.

You don't know my coworkers.

TANGARTH · 12-17-2007, 03:16 PM

I noticed Arelik was in a guild on the beta server, who's guild was that?

Illuminator · 12-17-2007, 03:54 PM

I look at my dark hotbars every single day I play and think, nope, these embedded devs ain't dun shit. It's like driving on the interstate with a fogged-up window. I'll be mumbling in my sleep any day now.

Arch0n · 12-17-2007, 04:23 PM

This is not that hard, folks.

Yes, the devs need to be able to play the game they built in order to test it and make sure it's working. No, they don't need to play on the regular servers (as regular toons or god-toons) in order to do so. All they need to do is three things:

1. Pay for a real, life, in-house QA team like every other software developer has. I have to believe SOE already has one, unless they force their coders to QA their own code amongst each other in Alpha, which would be incredibly stupid.

2. Play the mechanics in the office, read the code, watch the math. Roll a toon on test if they really want to play out and about with customers. No "good" raiding guilds on test? Hard to believe, but okay, it wouldn't take a lot of effort to convince one from any other server to migrate because "we want to raid with you as devs". Hell, most of my guild would re-roll fresh.

3. Read the fucking forums and you'll hear the complaints. Anyone here NOT believe we hear about it when an encounter bugs and consistently wipes raids? If I hear about it, the devs should be able to hear about it.

End of story.

Now then, that being said, does the game improve when the devs all have "Secret" toons on the regular servers? Sure, you see all sorts of things that devs may not have planned for. Along with that, you have human nature, and those devs will walk their guilds through raids, and some will abuse their powers with rezzes and timer resets and what not.

But here is the most important thing: it's not really a question of how badly a policy that allows this behavior "hurts me or my guild", it's a question of overall fairness: anyone who ever played UO back in the day before EQL remembers the rampant, utterly astounding abuse that GM's committed on a daily basis. Knowledge of corruption in the ranks is a guaranteed recipe for people to leave in droves, and that hurts everyone.

Ripzz · 12-17-2007, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arch0n

This is not that hard, folks.

Yes, the devs need to be able to play the game they built in order to test it and make sure it's working. No, they don't need to play on the regular servers (as regular toons or god-toons) in order to do so. All they need to do is three things:

1. Pay for a real, life, in-house QA team like every other software developer has. I have to believe SOE already has one, unless they force their coders to QA their own code amongst each other in Alpha, which would be incredibly stupid.

2. Play the mechanics in the office, read the code, watch the math. Roll a toon on test if they really want to play out and about with customers. No "good" raiding guilds on test? Hard to believe, but okay, it wouldn't take a lot of effort to convince one from any other server to migrate because "we want to raid with you as devs". Hell, most of my guild would re-roll fresh.
No scheduled downtimes, servers taken down whenever the fuck SoE feels like it. Kills not acknowledged WW because you aren't on a real server. Shit tons of buggy content. Mail randomly going missing, toons randomly deleted. Fuck no, I wouldn't reroll on test, and I doubt others would either. This is all the shit I hear about Test daily. Oh, several HC guilds have tried to start up on Test, they didn't get anywhere.
3. Read the fucking forums and you'll hear the complaints. Anyone here NOT believe we hear about it when an encounter bugs and consistently wipes raids? If I hear about it, the devs should be able to hear about it.
Don't forget that a shit ton of noobs post on forums, and on top of the Official boards and flames, there are plenty other fan sites and gigabytes of bullshit to sift through, like "OMG PLZ MY PONY ISNT KEWL ENUF GIV IT FLAMING TAIL PLZ KKTHX"
End of story.

Now then, that being said, does the game improve when the devs all have "Secret" toons on the regular servers? Sure, you see all sorts of things that devs may not have planned for. Along with that, you have human nature, and those devs will walk their guilds through raids, and some will abuse their powers with rezzes and timer resets and what not.

But here is the most important thing: it's not really a question of how badly a policy that allows this behavior "hurts me or my guild", it's a question of overall fairness: anyone who ever played UO back in the day before EQL remembers the rampant, utterly astounding abuse that GM's committed on a daily basis. Knowledge of corruption in the ranks is a guaranteed recipe for people to leave in droves, and that hurts everyone.

Devs playing in raid guilds are a good thing, because when you're playing in a controlled environment with other devs, content doesn't mean shit. When you're playing with other players on a live server as a member of that guild, you really get a sense of what the fuck others are feeling and thinking, thus helping you to design more content better.