Should EQ2 Developers Be Allowed To Join Raid Guilds? - Page 15

Mendanbar · 12-17-2007, 05:16 PM

A) stop bringing up testing and beta testing. Test Server and Beta testing will NEVER find all the problems because they're on deadlines, mostly because players are demanding in the release schedule. Yes, testing should be done, but don't kid yourselves to act like the Test server is a valid environment to get a feel for what the player experience is. If the Test server were even close to a real server, there would be a guild there trying to actually compete. There's not.

B) Let's be honest here. On each server, there are usually a handful of guilds at best that can clear all instances (not necessarily right this second, but in general, like towards the end of EoF). Any of these that can do this at the very least on occasion go out for contested when they're up during their raid time. So, is it okay for a dev to be in one of these? What about if they start trying harder? Giving the #1 a challenge? Does that mean the dev forever needs to outcast himself to the next guild down? What then? You're kidding yourselves about how they could be involved. What you're effectively asking for by saying that you don't want them in a competitive high-end guild is basically to be in a guild that probably can't kill and experience at least all the instanced content in an expansion, and then again... you will all bitch because it hasn't been looked at enough.

The way of handling this is very simple. Instead of having a dev not say who they are, dev characters should actually be COMPLETELY transparent, and subject to monitoring. They should not be allowed to be the actual raid leads in the guild (a far easier definition to make than that of a "raid guild", and they should be forbidden from giving raid instructions. Finally, if someone is found to have violated this information giving policy, nuke their character that would have benefitted through the guild having information. Blast it to bits. It would be up to their superiors to determine whether or not there should be job-related repercussions.

Flipmode · 12-17-2007, 05:39 PM

Devs should absolutely be allowed to be in guilds. That way they can experience first hand how fucked up some classes are in a raid setting. They can observe first hand the imbalances they created and how they effect the class in play not just in "theory".

That is the problem now. Most of the devs have no clue how the game actually plays or what roles they want classes to occupy. The ones that do play play the more fortunate classes so they dont think anything is wrong. I bet not one dev plays a coercer in a raid setting. Not one.

Flaming Homo · 12-17-2007, 05:53 PM

The devs don't play fortunate classes. Those classes are fortunate because the devs play them (and of course the devs make sure those classes aren't borked.)

Flaming Homo · 12-17-2007, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripzz

The devs that are in raid guilds aren't playing on dev accounts..

So sure are you?

Talonis · 12-17-2007, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mendanbar

A) stop bringing up testing and beta testing. Test Server and Beta testing will NEVER find all the problems because they're on deadlines, mostly because players are demanding in the release schedule. Yes, testing should be done, but don't kid yourselves to act like the Test server is a valid environment to get a feel for what the player experience is. If the Test server were even close to a real server, there would be a guild there trying to actually compete. There's not.

Given recent events, testing and beta testing is spot-on relevant, dumbass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mendanbar

B) Let's be honest here. On each server, there are usually a handful of guilds at best that can clear all instances (not necessarily right this second, but in general, like towards the end of EoF). Any of these that can do this at the very least on occasion go out for contested when they're up during their raid time. So, is it okay for a dev to be in one of these? What about if they start trying harder? Giving the #1 a challenge? Does that mean the dev forever needs to outcast himself to the next guild down? What then? You're kidding yourselves about how they could be involved. What you're effectively asking for by saying that you don't want them in a competitive high-end guild is basically to be in a guild that probably can't kill and experience at least all the instanced content in an expansion, and then again... you will all bitch because it hasn't been looked at enough.

Your attempt to Catch-22-ize this is a fail, but only because the enforcement of the OP is just as ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mendanbar

The way of handling this is very simple. Instead of having a dev not say who they are, dev characters should actually be COMPLETELY transparent, and subject to monitoring. They should not be allowed to be the actual raid leads in the guild (a far easier definition to make than that of a "raid guild", and they should be forbidden from giving raid instructions. Finally, if someone is found to have violated this information giving policy, nuke their character that would have benefitted through the guild having information. Blast it to bits. It would be up to their superiors to determine whether or not there should be job-related repercussions.

GL enforcing that. You are beyond retarded.

Crychtonn - Bylar · 12-17-2007, 06:12 PM

It's the Bill Gates - Microsoft plan.

Do a short term beta test period to help find major bugs. Then toss the product out to the public and let them find all the minor ones and any major ones they missed. Patch patch patch away. It sucks but does anyone really think it will ever change? Didn't think so and this is why Bill Gates is the Devil.

Illuminator · 12-17-2007, 06:25 PM

It's amazing how much software of mine goes through constant patch cycles, whether it's Windows itself, Office, Firefox, Trillian, WinAmp, EQ2, or hell, ProfitUI, eq2maps, da da da. What do we call this universal religion of Bill Gates?

Mendanbar · 12-17-2007, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talonis

GL enforcing that. You are beyond retarded.

Blow me, I've played on games where this worked perfectly. It's easy as shit to log a dev's alt,a nd any that were found to have violated the rules got nuked and lost their jobs. It was quite an incentive for people not to do it.

The alternative of "not telling people" you're a dev seems retarded, they can still just magically 'figure out' the strats that they happened to know. As for the third path of not having devs in raiding guilds, I think that's a terrible idea, the worst games around are the ones where devs don't regularly interact with players in a NON-FORMAL method of monitoring. Yes, they can follow players invis and see what they do, but that's not the same as watching players talk about strats and figure them out, or talk their way through figuring out a mob. COuld be very insightful for a dev that designs zones to see how a player responds to his clues on a mob's script.

Angelys · 12-17-2007, 09:40 PM

If I were a dev,

- I would want the mobs I designed to last as long as possible against the best guilds. I would want to see those guilds wiping for weeks or months.
- I would want to see them post here about how the mobs are impossible until a guild kills them first and then I'd have a good laugh at the whiners.
- I would NEVER EVER raid with them because I would be tempted to help them. And I would feel stupid for being the first to kill a mob I personally designed, where the fuck is the pleasure in that?

So yeah, I'm against devs playing in raid guilds on live servers because it's just retarded. If I was spending days and weeks to design a mob, I sure as hell wouldn't want to see it being killed on the first day, not even on the first week. And even less because I gave the strat to the world. That's probably the most retarded thing a dev could do. There's absolutely no sense of accomplishment or satisfaction to kill your own mobs first, while there sure is when you see the mob you designed resisting to the best players. At least that's how I would feel.

Angelys · 12-17-2007, 10:01 PM

Oh and live servers are not where the feedback should come from. There's a Test server and probably even a private internal server for it.
If you need to be in a successful raiding guild to see and test your own stuff, you need some serious help. That's just a lame excuse.
What's to be tested anyway? If you need to test a script, just buff your raid to make them invulnerable and check if it's working as intended. Once it's done you can test how hard a mob will hit with different amounts of mitig on the tank and debuffs on the mob. And then balance it until you think it's perfect. Same with AEs. Same with adds if there are any. Then make sure you won't irritate your raiders by preventing them from casting too much (hail, mischief 1.0). Then what? With the experience SOE should have, what's needed to be tested that much for us to tolerate such an unfair thing as having a dev in a succesfull raiding guild? I don't think there's a good answer to it. It's not like epic mobs are that different from each others anyway, most of the stuff has been tested and tested again on previous mobs.
Just design mobs and scripts that are not too dumb and that makes sense and you won't need extra testing on live servers.