Should EQ2 Developers Be Allowed To Join Raid Guilds? - Page 3

On_your_knees · 12-16-2007, 09:09 AM

its only unfair for us poor bastids who dont have one in our raid guild. Devs should be able to play the game too...why make a game you arent allowed to participate in? That being said... I want one in my guild ;)

Cracatoa · 12-16-2007, 09:11 AM

Blizzard fires people for the shit that the EQ2 devs pull. Its like cheating gives them a Badge of Honor.

Ya know, its a job. You don't really need to suck anyone off with "inside information" to be popular. Just do your damn jobs...for a change.

Duress · 12-16-2007, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aduros

That still doesn't change the fact that it happened.

Thats a HUGE example of dev favoritism. It was stated many times that no one could possibly be transferred off the test server. Yet these guys were allowed over, and with plats and fabled loots included.

Yes, it is--it's also the only time this particular kind of HUGE favoritism has occurred, and players have made it VERY CLEAR that this kind of favoritism will not be tolerated. I seriously doubt this will happen again. I'm satisfied with them correcting their mistake. Second time around--god forbid--will be another thing entirely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aduros

How much proof do you want? Most raids are instanced, so short of someone from inside of the guild coming out with logs and fraps, your not going to find the empirical evidence your looking for. However, that doesn't mean you should refrain from using common sense, and the ability to 'connect the dots'.

When people are accused of doing something, the onus is on the accuser to provide proof. /shrug

I can't help but be skeptical when people throw around "common sense" in lieu of facts because whether I might find something easy to believe true...doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to believe it. I guess I'm naive there too because I give people the benefit of the doubt more often than not.

Can I easily believe that guilds with devs get strats? Yes.
Can I easily believe that guilds with devs got menders summoned prior to the existence of mender bots? You bet.
Can I easily believe that guilds with devs got tips on how to EXPLOIT an encounter (entirely different from learning a proper strat)? Sure.

Does this mean I'm going to assume that's correct because some person wholly unconnected with the guild says so? No.
Does this mean I'm going to assume that's correct because some person in a competing guild says so? No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aduros

The EQ2 raiding community is pretty tight-knit. If exploits and other methods of cheating take place, it doesn't take too long before people pick up on it. If you want to know which guilds have devs, just ask around. Same can be said about info on exploits that other guilds have used in the past.

I'm aware that people can ID in which instances which guild used X exploit to kill Y mob, and which guild has a dev, but I don't ever see mention of devs summoning NPCs or devs slaying mobs for insta-loot. Worst I've seen are accusations of strat leakage or devs uber-buffing toons in beta so they can test raid content which at the end of the day amounts to strat leakage. Then again, maybe I'm not reading close enough for the juicy tidbits.

Bottom line: This is EQ2Flames. Any attacks on character or accusations I take with a grain of salt until I see something substantial. Kinda like how people demand logs in a RaR thread.

Cracatoa · 12-16-2007, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duress

Yes, it is--it's also the only time this particular kind of HUGE favoritism has occurred, and players have made it VERY CLEAR that this kind of favoritism will not be tolerated. I seriously doubt this will happen again. I'm satisfied with them correcting their mistake. Second time around--god forbid--will be another thing entirely.

Someone wasn't around for Ardent Legion's uber Dev port into Darathar when nobody else could zone in.

What about the fact that every guild with a dev in it gets transferred to Beta and walked through just about every raid? Please, don't deny that happens. I've been on some of those raids back in FoH. The Devs hold your hand and tell you everything. Its amazingly gay.

There are people here with a lot better information about this sort of thing than I have, first hand at that. Trust me, EQ2 devs are the most notoriously corrupt amongst them all. They'd have been all fired long ago for some of this shit if they tried it at Blizzard.

HardcoreCasual · 12-16-2007, 09:22 AM

Devs shouldn't be allowed to play on the live servers.
Why don't they have their own server, make their own groups and raids ~ you telling me there's less than 24 Devs?

Duress · 12-16-2007, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cracatoa

Someone wasn't around for Ardent Legion's uber Dev port into Darathar when nobody else could zone in.

What about the fact that every guild with a dev in it gets transferred to Beta and walked through just about every raid? Please, don't deny that happens. I've been on some of those raids back in FoH. The Devs hold your hand and tell you everything. Its amazingly gay.

There are people here with a lot better information about this sort of thing than I have, first hand at that. Trust me, EQ2 devs are the most notoriously corrupt amongst them all. They'd have been all fired long ago for some of this shit if they tried it at Blizzard.

No, I wasn't, but I've heard of it. Port = bad, I agree. But is this still happening or did they get criticized/flamed into the ground such that a repeat performance is unthinkable? It's supremely gaytastic that there are even these first offenses but christ, I'll drive myself insane caring about the first offenses so long as they don't repeat history.

And the transfer into beta thing I reduce to strat leakage which as I said above ... doesn't really fucking matter in the end anyway because everyone eventually learns what to do and gets their shit and gets bored before the next expansion. Sucks not to be the first but then again there are always people to sit back and deride the folks who got help in each and every progression thread.

I know my point is going to get lost as this thread grows but all I'm saying is that a) devs should be able to play the game in order to do their jobs right b) if they're in a raiding guild and give advice on how to do something, I don't fucking care c) if they do something tangible like porting or summoning or slaying, they need to gtfo and d) if people are going to be accused of receiving any damaging perks like loot w/o actually killing or access w/o questing, there better be proof and not assumption. That's all. I don't think that's terribly unreasonable.

spyderbite · 12-16-2007, 09:36 AM

I don't know how the SOE intranet works, but I suspect its similar to other big game company's intranets. GM's and Developers do not have access to their development/gm accounts from outside the intranet. So, if they create an account from home, they have no "special abilities" other than an advanced knowledge of how certain aspects of the game work.

EA has a special server setup that employees can log in to from outside their intranet to allow them to perform development tasks when not on the campus. When they come back to work, they are able to port the changes they made while at home or on the road over to QA to approve. But, at no time are they able to work on any of the live servers and any changes they make are by no means instantaneous.

Allowing a Developer or GM for that matter, in to a raid guild gives that guild no special advantage unless said employee shares development secrets about the spawns, etc. Based on the community's inability to keep anything to themselves, I doubt such advantages would stay a secret for longer than 24 hours.

aduros · 12-16-2007, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duress

Yes, it is--it's also the only time this particular kind of HUGE favoritism ~~has occurred~~ was caught, and players have made it VERY CLEAR that this kind of favoritism will not be tolerated. I seriously doubt this will happen again. I'm satisfied with them correcting their mistake. Second time around--god forbid--will be another thing entirely.

Fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duress

I'm aware that people can ID in which instances which guild used X exploit to kill Y mob, and which guild has a dev, but I don't ever see mention of devs summoning NPCs or devs slaying mobs for insta-loot. Worst I've seen are accusations of strat leakage or devs uber-buffing toons in beta so they can test raid content which at the end of the day amounts to strat leakage. Then again, maybe I'm not reading close enough for the juicy tidbits.

That would probably be the most extreme abuse of power, and I would sincerely hope no dev would be dumb enough to do something like that. But to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if something like that happened before. Not often, but happened. Now if devs wanted to raid, why do so with one of the top WW guilds? All it does is leave a bitter taste in someone's mouth when they hear that a guild is #1 WW....but they have a dev.

Same way referees, or members of power can't be affiliated with any teams. No matter how hard you try, it's human nature to let your bias affect your judgment. I can think of quite a few nights where I've been up late frustrated, pulling and learning a mob. Where if I was a dev, I would have done something to end the night quick.

Duress · 12-16-2007, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aduros

Fixed.

Ok.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aduros

That would probably be the most extreme abuse of power, and I would sincerely hope no dev would be dumb enough to do something like that. But to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if something like that happened before. Not often, but happened. Now if devs wanted to raid, why do so with one of the top WW guilds? All it does is leave a bitter taste in someone's mouth when they hear that a guild is #1 WW....but they have a dev.

Same way referees, or members of power can't be affiliated with any teams. No matter how hard you try, it's human nature to let your bias affect your judgment. I can think of quite a few nights where I've been up late frustrated, pulling and learning a mob. Where if I was a dev, I would have done something to end the night quick.

Why a WW guild? For the same reason anyone else might want to be in a WW guild: accomplish shit with skilled players, get loot. Nothing wrong with that, it's a natural instinct to have in a game. Besides, if they're short on time, what better guild to do it with? WW guilds have perfected efficiency?!

If all it does is leave a bitter taste in someone's mouth...I'm ok with that. I'd rather they invest their time playing in EQ2--WW guild or no--than play something else and completely lose touch with what the fuck goes on here. The caveat always being, of course, they aren't physically dicking around with shit.

Coriolanus · 12-16-2007, 09:54 AM

I don't think that developers SHOULD EVER play the game in a guild in which paying public participates. Human nature being what it is, even if the job of the character is not known, there is always the chance that the player will provide the guild with a competitive advantage because of his/her knowledge. It smacks of "insider trading".

I do think developers should play the game on a live server, but it should be in their own guild, not a regular player guild. They should definitely try to experience the game as the paying customer does, as it can be useful in seeing problems with the game that need to be fixed.

Also every class should be played by at least one developer so that some feeling is acquired as to what that class needs.

But conflating developers with general guild should be a definite NO NO for SOE -- even for those playing on their own time.