Should EQ2 Developers Be Allowed To Join Raid Guilds? - Page 4

Cracatoa · 12-16-2007, 10:56 AM

Well, SOE has nothing to complain about concerning content not lasting long. Their the entire problem. Their own people are of course not gonna wanna sit there wiping all night on something. Voila, in comes the strats. Of course they have an internal wiki describing every single fight, and of course every single dev, GM, and probably everyone else has access to it.

SOE, here is your wake-up call. People are sick and tired of the crooked ways of your own employees. Come up with some very clear-cut rules and you let us know when your game is worth the platters they run on. Right now, progress in this game is absolutely worthless. 1. It isn't hard 2. Too many devs in top end guilds 3. Too much information concerning changes is leaked on a regular basis.

Kinda funny how Aeralik, the combat-mechanics dev, plays a Dark Elf, and Dark Elves just happened to get the best racials. Hmmm. Was he lucky, did Nostradamus tip him off, or did he just stack the chips in his favor?

aduros · 12-16-2007, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duress

Why a WW guild? For the same reason anyone else might want to be in a WW guild: accomplish shit with skilled players, get loot. Nothing wrong with that, it's a natural instinct to have in a game. Besides, if they're short on time, what better guild to do it with? WW guilds have perfected efficiency?!

If all it does is leave a bitter taste in someone's mouth...I'm ok with that. I'd rather they invest their time playing in EQ2--WW guild or no--than play something else and completely lose touch with what the fuck goes on here. The caveat always being, of course, they aren't physically dicking around with shit.

So you would have no problem if you found out refs worked for the Patriots? I mean, as long as they didn't mess with any of the games right?

Cracatoa · 12-16-2007, 11:02 AM

I trust anyone associated with the Pats or SOE to never cheat!

/tongueincheek

Duress · 12-16-2007, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aduros

So you would have no problem if you found out refs worked for the Patriots? I mean, as long as they didn't mess with any of the games right?

Not the same thing.

One, you've pluralized it so that in this new hypothetical situation, an entire group of refs are rooting for the Pats versus the previous discussion of a raiding guild having A dev among its members?

Two, a more appropriate comparison would be a ref who spends part of his/her time as a QB for the Pats, in which case it doesn't matter what s/he does because in that moment as QB s/he can't exercise his/her power as a ref by calling penalties. Similarly, a dev on his/her personal time as a raider (in the best of circumstances) can't exercise his/her full powers as dev.

If the ref-cum-QB oversteps his/her place by influencing other refs to call penalties against the other team, that's gay. If a dev-cum-raider oversteps his/her place by summoning shit or using uber dev powers or something, that's gay.

Otherwise? That's right, I don't care. =(

Another thing is that a ref that is working as a ref and is biased...can have a direct effect on the outcome of a game...which has an effect on ranking...which has an effect on who's going to what championship...etc. We don't have that kind of system in EQ2, so a dev designing the game that also happens to favor a guild isn't upsetting some coded ranking system that matters. The WW 1st, 2nd stuff is something WW guilds made up and discredit all the freaking time.

So until this game is designed differently, it doesn't matter in a really substantial way. Unless, of course, you masturbate to the discovery pages...in which case...uh, yeah. =)

Another way to look at it: I'm so invested in our devs ensuring they understand what this game is about and make intelligent changes that I am willing to overlook verbal favoritism...so invested that your making comparisons to other hypothetical situations are pointless as this lapse in moral conviction or whatever you wanna call it is the exception rather than the rule.

PS - I live in Boston and don't care about the Pats. Is that wrong?!

aduros · 12-16-2007, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duress

Not the same thing.

One, you've pluralized it so that in this new hypothetical situation, an entire group of refs are rooting for the Pats versus the previous discussion of a raiding guild having A dev among its members?

Two, a more appropriate comparison would be a ref who spends part of his/her time as a QB for the Pats, in which case it doesn't matter what s/he does because in that moment as QB s/he can't exercise his/her power as a ref by calling penalties. Similarly, a dev on his/her personal time as a raider (in the best of circumstances) can't exercise his/her full powers as dev.

Wether the refs work or play for the Pats doesn't matter. They would still have a bias in favor of the Pats winning. Hence the reason referees and members of power in the NFL aren't allowed affiliation with the teams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duress

Another thing is that a ref that is working as a ref and is biased...can have a direct effect on the outcome of a game...which has an effect on ranking...which has an effect on who's going to what championship...etc. We don't have that kind of system in EQ2, so a dev designing the game that also happens to favor a guild isn't upsetting some coded ranking system that matters. The WW 1st, 2nd stuff is something WW guilds made up and discredit all the freaking time.

Alot of hardcore raiders would disagree. While it may be meaningless to you, to those who put in the time and effort it's a low blow. Cheating is still cheating, even if 'no one gets hurt'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duress

Another way to look at it: I'm so invested in our devs ensuring they understand what this game is about and make intelligent changes that I am willing to overlook verbal favoritism...so invested that your making comparisons to other hypothetical situations are pointless as this lapse in moral conviction or whatever you wanna call it is the exception rather than the rule.

Lawl if you think the devs are using their raid time to make intelligent changes. Have you seen RoK? The 1 shotted tanks, horrible raid progression, worthless itemization, Rangers getting fucked on Arrow levels, the melee getting reamed in the ass on hit% against orange con compared to casters? Sorry but 'intelligent changes' is not what the devs are using their raid time for. So the notion of 'well idc if they cheat, as long as they fix stuff' doesn't really apply.

Theres no justifiable reason to have devs on live servers raiding with hardcore guilds.

Duress · 12-16-2007, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aduros

Wether the refs work or play for the Pats doesn't matter. They would still have a bias in favor of the Pats winning. Hence the reason referees and members of power in the NFL aren't allowed affiliation with the teams.

You missed the part about bias and affecting rankings, didn't you? I'm not going to repeat myself, I'm sorry. I'm really tired. =(

Quote:

Originally Posted by aduros

Alot of hardcore raiders would disagree. While it may be meaningless to you, to those who put in the time and effort it's a low blow. Cheating is still cheating, even if 'no one gets hurt'.

And? I'm not speaking for them.

As a raider, when I put in the time and effort...and know I did it without the extra help...I feel more proud about it. Competition isn't just about ranking -- it's also a mentality of superiority, which if you have a thing against devs in WW guilds makes it easy for you to discredit other guilds' claims to WW firsting anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aduros

Lawl if you think the devs are using their raid time to make intelligent changes. Have you seen RoK? The 1 shotted tanks, horrible raid progression, worthless itemization, Rangers getting fucked on Arrow levels, the melee getting reamed in the ass on hit% against orange con compared to casters? Sorry but 'intelligent changes' is not what the devs are using their raid time for. So the notion of 'well idc if they cheat, as long as they fix stuff' doesn't really apply.

Theres no justifiable reason to have devs on live servers raiding with hardcore guilds.

Dude, I never said the game was close to perfect. I play a fucking coercer. You bet your ass I have gripes. =)

Rather, I expressed a greater fear for them NOT playing their own damn game. I just see so much more evil coming from not playing at all.

Now: I feel like we've degenerated into repeating ourselves. You posted a poll and asked for feedback -- I presented an alternate POV. I've answered your questions as straight as possible, yes? Unless there's something new to discuss, I think we're done now. We've established the bottom line that you care, I don't. =( And short of guilds cheating their own server out of mythical items or acquiring access w/o earning it or any other really really egregious abuse...I doubt I can muster much concern. I just can't. I'm sorry. =(

Caswydian · 12-16-2007, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aduros

I believe someone thats staffed as part of the development team, has no place inside of a competitive raid guild.

It should be obvious now that if even the Senior Producer couldn't resist the temptation of giving his buddies "special treatment", going as far as DEMANDING it be done, other member of the development team, place their guild at an unfair advantage. In every contest there's a clause that bars employees among others from participating, why should raiding be any different?

Even though the rewards are intangible in RL, Raiders still put forth a massive amount of time and effort. To have someone who's staffed at the company who developed, and is still currently developing the game your playing, competing against you is unfair. Its pretty obvious that the major raid guilds that have a Dev on their roster, are aware of it. For us to think said guilds aren't receiving special treatment would be naive.

Devs should be barred from raid guilds for the same reasons players are banned from exploiting/hacking: it provides you with an unintended advantage over everyone else. The fact that players have devs in their raid guilds is simply unacceptable.

I'm interested in knowing what everyone else thinks about this issue.

1. You are insinuating that Scott had a hand in the UT issue - this accusation is baseless, so why are you perpetuating this rumor?

2. There is no such thing as a 'raid guild' in any official capacity. While some guilds prefer raiding, there is no such thing as a raid guild either at a mechanics level or rules level. A guild is a guild.

3. Any raiding competition is informal and not endorsed by SOE as an official aspect of their game.

Lucutious · 12-16-2007, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caswydian

1. You are insinuating that Scott had a hand in the UT issue - this accusation is baseless, so why are you perpetuating this rumor?

2. There is no such thing as a 'raid guild' in any official capacity. While some guilds prefer raiding, there is no such thing as a raid guild either at a mechanics level or rules level. A guild is a guild.

3. Any raiding competition is informal and not endorsed by SOE as an official aspect of their game.

... And you hi the nail on the head, I think. For SOE to be able to say "Devs cannot be in Hardcore Raid Guilds" then one would have to define "Hardcore Raid Guild." What makes a guild Hardcore, or Casual? I think most of us can pull the "I know it when I see it" card, but that doens't bode well. Lay out some clear defining charastics.

You can't use DKP, I know many guilds that use DKP that are both casual and hardcore.
You can't use raiding percentages, I know many guilds that use them that are both hardcore and casual.
You can't use a phone-list system as a delimiter, I know many guilds that use them that are both hardcore and casual.
Perhaps hardcore guilds have less than 30 members. Perhaps they are the ones that are clearing all the instances. Perhaps they are the ones that have posters with eleventy billlion postcounts.

Whatever guidelines you set-up, I'm sure could be torn down with specific, precise examples.

So now, your trying to limit it and say the Devs can't be in any guild whatsoever. I simply wouldn't ask them to do that. A good portion of the fun of this game is the community, denying them access to a good part of the community just seems wrong.

Someone else mentioned "Just put them all on their own server." Crazy idea. I know it may be hard to believe, but people that work together dont' always like each other. Sure, they are most of the time professional, but I don't know anyone that would want to work 8-12 hours a day with a crew, then go home and play with the same crew. Not only that, but you have the issue of class balance - what if you have 5 devs that prefer to play as a Guardian? or 8 Defilers?

I think the OP's intent is good, but in practice I'm not so sure how it could work out.

LFG · 12-16-2007, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aduros

LFG could you please edit the poll so it shows who voted for which option, and the typo with option 2. Thanks in advance.

You already had public voting turned on, thankfully. This is a good poll.

Just click on the number of votes to see who's voted.

I strongly feel that Eq2 devs should play the game at the highest levels. That way they understand it from a player's perspective.

I have no problem with devs in raid guilds. We all know there are devs in raid guilds now. If they didn't raid, they wouldn't be able to do their job as effectively. Seriously, thank God many devs play the game, it would royally suck if they didn't.

Now, being secret about what guild they are in? I think that's a personal choice decision. If they let anyone know, they will always direct heat to that guild from other players thinking that guild has an unfair advantage because there is a dev in it.

If it was me as a dev, I'd be in a raid guild, but would never let anyone know I was a dev. I'm not saying others should do that, I'm just saying that's what I'd do in that situation, to avoid the appearance of impropriety and the hassle and abuse.

Apollodon · 12-16-2007, 01:41 PM

dev's should play

they shouldnt cheat

are any devs raid leaders?