T-minus 90 days until I cancel my EQ2 account. - Page 19

Mendanbar · 01-24-2008, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caswydian

That raiding requires more coordination and more people is good justification for a higher quantity of loot, so that more people have a shot at getting something, but it is not alone justification for a higher quality of loot. The problem is, the extra effort involved in raiding is at a team level - guild, alliance, etc., but the rewards are at the individual level.

Does a raid really require more effort from each individual than heroic content? In some cases, this is certainly true, but in others having 23 other people in a raid with you means it's easier to slack off. In a group, chances are you only have one, maybe two healers, so if the healer is slacking, you know it. In a raid, unless people are checking the parses after each fight, a healer, especially in a group other than the MT group, could not do anything and the raid would be no worse off.

Except that any raid guild worth a crap doesn't take extraneous healers because it's just a waste of time. You roll with exactly how many healers are NEEDED to do the job and no more, so you can fit in more DPS to get done faster. And yes, the DPS and others definitely are monitored on their DPS. People don't want fights to take any longer than they have to.

Are there zones that are easy enough that slacking is definitely possible? Sure, but that's why there are tiers of zones, and why the lower tier fabled shouldn't be much higher quality gear than legendary, because they're not THAT much more difficult, but they're a stepping stone.

While in principle, I don't have any issue with extremely difficult and challenging heroic fights giving great gear to people that deserve it, they need to be challenging enough that that is actually the case. Too bad that situation doesn't exist. The closest thing to it was old Nizara.

You're arguing conceptual arguments about mechanics that don't exist. There isn't a single heroic fight that's even close to the difficulty of an epic. They're all easy as cake... and unfortunately, heroic content gets nerfed faster than epic content, so even if they were to make something difficult, the heroic groupers would cry foul and it would be nerfed in no time. Look at Drusella. That fight was easy as could be, but they nerfed it for people that didn't have the patience to figure out how her buffs worked and what you should do to counteract them... which is... guess what, exactly what you do on pretty much every raid mob that isn't required on ANY heroic mobs any longer.

Caswydian · 01-24-2008, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oisin

So raiding is easier than grouping? Sweet! This thread isn't quite kilt. /discuss
j/k

That is actually a neat observation about the slackass healer but, the truth is someone will catch them and they will no longer be permitted to partake in the reindeer games... because a raider DOES look over the parse, even on a win. They take the time outside of the encounter to fine tune. It's not considered outside of the game to a raider. It's part of the game.

Where as a non-raider probably doesn't even load up a parser or give a crap if the zone gets cleared all the same and certainly can't be bothered to crunch numbers except when they're at the broker.

While it's true that a slacker may get caught, it will be because people are looking at parses, not because the game requires everyone to be going 100%. On the other hand, in a group, if your only healer isn't pulling his weight, you'll know pretty quickly.

Of course, there's also raid encounters where not every member of the raid will have much to do. There's many encounters where only the MT group healers really needed to do any healing, and the others were left doing DPS or whatever it is healers do when they don't heal.

Mendanbar · 01-24-2008, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caswydian

While it's true that a slacker may get caught, it will be because people are looking at parses, not because the game requires everyone to be going 100%. On the other hand, in a group, if your only healer isn't pulling his weight, you'll know pretty quickly.

Of course, there's also raid encounters where not every member of the raid will have much to do. There's many encounters where only the MT group healers really needed to do any healing, and the others were left doing DPS or whatever it is healers do when they don't heal.

I take it you haven't touched a single t8 raid encounter, have you?

T8 is full of encounters that will make it obvious when people aren't doing their jobs, whether they're LONG fights that become MUCH longer if someone isn't pulling their weight, to large aoes, to cure fights, to mana-watches where you can't just sit there... beyond T1, it becomes evident when someone isn't doing their job.

Myrune · 01-24-2008, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caswydian

Of course, there's also raid encounters where not every member of the raid will have much to do. There's many encounters where only the MT group healers really needed to do any healing, and the others were left doing DPS or whatever it is healers do when they don't heal.

As a Templar it's not exactly as if I do nothing when my group doesn't need much assistance, I do surf pr0n and scope out the new arrivals at http://www.adultsheepfinder.com/index.html
hehehe.

Actually, even when I'm not in the MT group I have to keep a pretty close watch on my group members and those in the other groups in case another healer needs assistance. I'm sure they do the same for me...in fact I know they do. I even have to keep an eye on the MT and the MA in case something goes south. I've found raiding to be much more intense than grouping or soloing and find I enjoy the challenge much more. What I don't get, and never have, is that we spend hours slugging it out in some raid instance and only a couple of people in the group get gear of any note. That seems like an awful lot of effort for very little reward and then to have others whine that it's not fair that the small amount of loot dropped is generally pretty decent (Or at least should be decent,) simply boggles my mind.

And for what it's worth, I've never found myself in the very unenviable position of having e-peen envy for gear that another person has acquired. If I find that it's that interesting of a piece to me I'll ask where it's found and/or what quest/instance, etc, is needed to acquire said gear. I then go do what's needed to get the gear, but I would never whine it's not fair...that attitude is simply odd to me. Go earn the stuff. There is one exception...I saw an old-school goblin on the docs at Antonica pull out a catapult and toss another old-school goblin into the air where it exploded into fireworks. That was the funniest stuff I've seen in a long time and I want one too!!!

sig1043 · 01-30-2008, 03:49 PM

Thats pretty short sighted if you think the ultimate truth is

Raid Lewt > group > solo

There is no reason why a solo instance/encounter can't be designed so that only a select few have the skill to complete it, the same goes for group and raid content.

Sure, by default organizing 24 people is more difficult than 6 or none. But there are enough like-minded people playing the game that understand how to play well with others, which makes the organization effort diminish to a minimal effort. Even the argument that some people in the raid walk away with nothing for the night is a mute point. Solo and group encounters can have the same issue (even with 8 named in CoA, I've walked away with nothing about half the time, more often now that I've gotten a lot of my class items...not saying CoA is as difficult as some raids, just pointing out you can walk away with nothing). And in 5-6 months most of the RoK raids will be routine runs for higher end raiding guilds...where is the effort/difficulty/risk in that?

The only things right now that make raids deserve better equipment is the zone reuse timer, the level of difficulty in the higher tiers, and time commitment.

There is no reason a solo or group instance can't be designed that has a long reuse timer/lockout, requires a higher lvl of skill, and takes a decent chunk of time to complete that rewards a fabled item (or in the case of a solo instance the chance ~30-50% at a fabled item). Yes, i realize its a pipe dream to think SoE can come up with this kind of stuff, but it doesn't mean it is impossible.

For the record, yes I realize the current RoK loot is fucked up.

Myrune · 01-30-2008, 04:13 PM

I do tend to agree with your thoughts as long as the criteria mentioned are part of the equation. I don't begrudge other players getting better gear, but I think that the work getting the same or similar gear should be similar.

When I wasn't raiding, the gear I had was more than sufficient to the adventures I was doing at the time. The gear I have now sort of over-powers everything but the tougher zones and in some cases we actually change out of raid gear as it's simply not needed to complete the quests.

Even our raid leader thinks that anyone paying to play this game should be able to have any gear available...I understand what he says, but think that to have the same gear they should put in the time. Honestly, not everyone has the time to devote to the game and I simply don't understand why it should bother them not getting the same items...especially since they really don't need them. I have the time, but give up watching TV to do it. The 4 hours per night most people watch TV I spend playing this game...it's my choice. Because I spend the time more opportunities are available to me to get the better items...its simple math.

There are a number of things that I wish I had in the real world...I have, and never will, bemoan the fact that I don't have those items. If I want the item bad enough I simply put in the required time to acquire said item...it's truly very simple. If you have a better item than I do...so be it...God bless you and your efforts. I don't envy you, but I might be glad for you, seriously. (What's this jealousy thing you all speak of?)

Illuminator · 01-30-2008, 06:52 PM

Hmm, did I arrive in time for the necro lockout?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobz69

The entire problem with the "Curve" is that it fuckign starts at like 600, which is less then half the fuckign cap.

Good, then you admit that the problem with the curve is where the curve is, not with the curve concept itself. That was easy, wasn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobz69

Its great for casual scrubs like you illuminator, but for anyoen at high end all it does is nullify the gear you will never see more then a screenshot of.

Wipe the froth off your mouth, from what I've seen a screenshot suffices, lol. Why do you think I withdrew, because I liked it all more than life for its cost in time and freedom?

Quote:

Originally Posted by firamas

the raiders are the ones who constantly drive the devs to balance content and keep the game challenging.

Bullshit on the benevolence act, they are entirely self-interested and could care less if the game outside their sphere goes to hell. See the "casual scrubs" remark above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caswydian

First, you claim that harder encounters should give better rewards, but then state that raids should arbitrarily always give better rewards than heroic instances.

Bingo! The conflict underlying all of these kinds of threads, laid out in the sun once again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mendanbar

That fight was easy as could be, but they nerfed it for people that didn't have the patience to figure out how her buffs worked and what you should do to counteract them... which is... guess what, exactly what you do on pretty much every raid mob that isn't required on ANY heroic mobs any longer.

Let's reiterate with this from devtracker:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illucide

Drusella -
The changes to her really don't make the fight easier or harder. They make the fight more engaging, as you're able to try and squeeze out every last second of DPS before she throws the shield up. They allow all classes the appropriate use of their abilities. Shadowknights do draw a significant portion of their taunting ability from DoTs. Taking that away (or forcing them to right-click cancel their dots when the shield goes up) just isn't all that great. Also, it was just annoying to have tanks unequip their weapons and face the other way. It didn't add challenge to the fight, and it wasn't really intended to work that way. Drusella will still continue to cast her other spells and abilities while in her bone cage. It's not as though she's helpless while it's up.

Also, keep in mind that these fights really were designed to be a challenge for non-raiders, not for people geared in full fabled with max AA. =)

Oizen · 01-30-2008, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminator

...from what I've seen a screenshot suffices, lol. Why do you think I withdrew, because I liked it all more than life for its cost in time and freedom?...

I'm hanging on to that one bud. It illuminates my matured view of digital phats perfectly.

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There are really a number of different types of "casual" players and not all casual players are nubs. In fact, the gaming careers of some casual folks just might surprise you. As shocking as it might sound, some people actually choose to play a different endgame than SOE's script of raid progression.

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Since folks are set on debating which is harder... Before RoK, my Templar could solo heal Unrest asleep with two macros and still out DPS parse a ridiculous amount of morons or slackers... I had to admit to myself that single group content at it's finest was nowhere near as encompassing as raiding where even on easy epic stuff I'd actually use most of my hotbars and have to make timing decisions...

Raiding is about effencientcy... single group PU crap is about the win. What's sad is you can actually be more efficient in single group content NOT using your entire hotbar saving power by not curing or debuffing since encounters are normally less than 10 seconds.

I side with raiders that raided loot should be better than non-raided loot. if for no other reason than dealing with raiding guild drama, being on-call for videogames, militantly crunching numbers, etc. kindo sucks the fun out of it. They need some perk imo.

Honestly, wtf does extra DPS or proc potential help an efficient casual group? Burn a mob in 10 seconds... and chat it up between pulls... or burn mobs in 9 seconds and chat it up... whatever. /shrug

Not that SoE can't make single group content challenging. THE FACT is they just don't...

...and this appears to be a fundemental foundation of the game for what we can only assume is financial motivation opening it to a larger market.

Illuminator · 01-30-2008, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oisin

I side with raiders that raided loot should be better than non-raided loot. if for no other reason than dealing with raiding guild drama, being on-call for videogames, militantly crunching numbers, etc. kindo sucks the fun out of it. They need some perk imo.

But here's where I come in: why perk it at all if it's that fucked up? It's like a sloppy car wreck you just can't turn away from. Tow the damn thing already. Or hell, it's being made to sound like something that's done on a dare, not for long-term pleasure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oisin

Not that SoE can't make single group content challenging. THE FACT is they just don't...

...and this appears to be a fundemental foundation of the game for what we can only assume is financial motivation opening it to a larger market.

For what few development resources everyone claims they have, I do see them making an "epic" misallocation of their creative focus, on zones and mobs most people either don't know about, don't give a fuck about, or will never see. That shit's as bad as Guiliani's Florida strategy.

Oizen · 01-30-2008, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminator

For what few development resources everyone claims they have, I do see them making an "epic" misallocation of their creative focus, on zones and mobs most people either don't know about, don't give a fuck about, or will never see. That shit's as bad as Guiliani's Florida strategy.

1 group zone mazes and progression puzzles are fun and all, I guess, but, even if SoE makes them hard, with wikis... no one ever figures out the progression tricks to a zone if it takes more than 30seconds of thinking anymore... someone always just reads the spoiler to keep the ball rolling and once you figure the puzzle out it's 0 fun and just annoying most of the time.

I, for one, would be down for some challenging and LONG single 6 toon group encounters. Encounters are almost always fun & replayable even if you know what to expect.