Assassin Vs Wizard - Page 4

Orochan · 01-28-2008, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slippery

When you get your perma number one dps spot I better get the ability to not get one shot by anything heroic or greater, the ability to have free damage without using power, and the ability to have poisons of my own so I can vary what effects I do.

Since neither of these are ever going to happen, either suck up the fact that it will always be the best player with the best group topping the parse, or quit.

Edit: The ability to effectively kite would be nice as well

Since when do we raid heroics?

Also, obviously any dumbshit knows its the best player w/ the best group parses best, but if a wizzy and sin had BOTH optimal groups, the sin should win every time hands down.

o and everyone gets one shotted in rok.
l2r more please.

Illuminator · 01-28-2008, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cochy

Lets just throw out the whole concept of the different armor types because if you were actually raiding anything worth a fuck at this time you would know chain or cloth it doesn't matter a raid mob will still one shot you.

Well then! From the earliest days it was widely accepted that survivability was the balance against dps, and that the ability to wear chain is an introduction to light tanking ability. It should be obvious that there is now a dev (or devs) who isn't keeping with the program.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orochan

When you give assassins propagate etc etc, then you can start bitching about who shud do more dps.

Propagations is perma-bugged in its current state. Are you asking for a bug fix or for all of combat to be re-oriented around the bug?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orochan

Since when do we raid heroics?

Short-termed argument until you learn to understand that raid mechanics are contorted enough to neutralize many cherished abilities of many classes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orochan

but if a wizzy and sin had BOTH optimal groups, the sin should win every time hands down.

Should or does?

Orochan · 01-28-2008, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminator

Well then! From the earliest days it was widely accepted that survivability was the balance against dps, and that the ability to wear chain is an introduction to light tanking ability. It should be obvious that there is now a dev (or devs) who isn't keeping with the program.

This is t8 not t5, things change.

Propagations is perma-bugged in its current state. Are you asking for a bug fix or for all of combat to be re-oriented around the bug?

Stop reading between the lines, propagations even if "fixed" offers GROUP WIDE UTILITY that preds DO NOT GET. It is by that factor and that factor alone that preds should out dps mages.

Short-termed argument until you learn to understand that raid mechanics are contorted enough to neutralize many cherished abilities of many classes.

Not really, every class functions just the same in raids as they do in groups, with slight variations of course, but by your statement you make it sound as if templars all of a sudden are at the raid to dps only, since many of thier abilities do not work on raid mobs, and this is clearly not the case.

Should or does?

Both. Except in VP.

You'll never win this.

Illuminator · 01-28-2008, 02:05 AM

I won this years ago. I'm just waiting for the formalities.

Orochan · 01-28-2008, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminator

I won this years ago. I'm just waiting for the formalities.

Like I said this is t8 not t5, things change get with the program please.

Gorten · 01-28-2008, 02:46 AM

well imo i think it come's down to skill , assassin vs wizzy

but in the end i say assassin, cuz when we die. Its get ressed, buffed witch we only have 3 buffs and start DPS'ing agian if we get killed we can get right back in the fight.

i have seen wizzys die and there dps go's to shit

i am a great assassin but the not best ...... yet

Azleya · 01-28-2008, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slippery

When you get your perma number one dps spot I better get the ability to not get one shot by anything heroic or greater, the ability to have free damage without using power, and the ability to have poisons of my own so I can vary what effects I do.

Since neither of these are ever going to happen, either suck up the fact that it will always be the best player with the best group topping the parse, or quit.

Edit: The ability to effectively kite would be nice as well

Free damage without using mana is irrelevant unless mages are actually running out of mana on any kind of regular basis, and this is almost never an issue these days due to the massive amount of mana management shit available to mages (Crystal Gift, Girdle of Di'Zok Spirit on your priest, troub, illu, etc.). In fact, I would venture that the reason there's so much of this shit available for mages is to address that issue. Personally, as a ranger, I run out of mana far more often than any mage. Also, the effects of mana management are really just indirect personal dps, and are thus reflected in the individual's parses, as running out of mana depresses the individual's dps.

Poisons are first of all consumables that must be regularly paid for, and their 'varied effects' only qualify as utility for the debuff poisons, which are not that great, but do offer some small utility, but which are optimally used by rogues due to their superior AA's for them. Mana tap poison is a last resort mana management ability, for which damage poison must be foregone. De-aggro poison is needed in some situations due to the lack of a troubador in many scout groups and the relatively poor quality of some scout classes' personal de-aggro abilities. Both mana tap and de-aggro poisons' effects are again just indirect personal dps that can't be separated into some other 'utility' category. If you die or run out of mana, that is reflected in your parse.

Getting one-shot by heroic mobs and kiting ability are issues separate from raid balance. On raids, scouts get one-shot the same as mages. If you want better solo balance, argue for that, but don't argue for scouts to be inferior on raids because they are superior solo, as that is essentially an argument for making certain classes 'solo classes' that have no place on a raid.

The core relevant question is, "if predators and sorcerors do equal dps, which class is more valuable on a raid?" The answer is clearly sorcerors, as they bring a lot more utility (Propagation, Frigid Gift, Rays of Disintegration, etc.). 3k dps + Frigid Gift > 3k dps (3k is an arbitrary number) - it's really quite simple. In order to make up for their utility deficiency, predators have to be able to do superior dps. What you've essentially argued for is for predators to be inferior raid classes. If you want predators to be brought up to par in the utility department rather than be given a dps advantage, argue for that, but don't argue for predators to have equal dps but deficient utility.

Orochan · 01-28-2008, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azleya

Free damage without using mana is irrelevant unless mages are actually running out of mana on any kind of regular basis, and this is almost never an issue these days due to the massive amount of mana management shit available to mages (Crystal Gift, Girdle of Di'Zok Spirit on your priest, troub, illu, etc.). In fact, I would venture that the reason there's so much of this shit available for mages is to address that issue. Personally, as a ranger, I run out of mana far more often than any mage. Also, the effects of mana management are really just indirect personal dps, and are thus reflected in the individual's parses, as running out of mana depresses the individual's dps.

Poisons are first of all consumables that must be regularly paid for, and their 'varied effects' only qualify as utility for the debuff poisons, which are not that great, but do offer some small utility, but which are optimally used by rogues due to their superior AA's for them. Mana tap poison is a last resort mana management ability, for which damage poison must be foregone. De-aggro poison is needed in some situations due to the lack of a troubador in many scout groups and the relatively poor quality of some scout classes' personal de-aggro abilities. Both mana tap and de-aggro poisons' effects are again just indirect personal dps that can't be separated into some other 'utility' category. If you die or run out of mana, that is reflected in your parse.

Getting one-shot by heroic mobs and kiting ability are issues separate from raid balance. On raids, scouts get one-shot the same as mages. If you want better solo balance, argue for that, but don't argue for scouts to be inferior on raids because they are superior solo, as that is essentially an argument for making certain classes 'solo classes' that have no place on a raid.

The core relevant question is, "if predators and sorcerors do equal dps, which class is more valuable on a raid?" The answer is clearly sorcerors, as they bring a lot more utility (Propagation, Frigid Gift, Rays of Disintegration, etc.). 3k dps + Frigid Gift > 3k dps (3k is an arbitrary number) - it's really quite simple. In order to make up for their utility deficiency, predators have to be able to do superior dps. What you've essentially argued for is for predators to be inferior raid classes. If you want predators to be brought up to par in the utility department rather than be given a dps advantage, argue for that, but don't argue for predators to have equal dps but deficient utility.

Azleya = Greatness.

Azleya · 01-28-2008, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminator

Well then! From the earliest days it was widely accepted that survivability was the balance against dps, and that the ability to wear chain is an introduction to light tanking ability. It should be obvious that there is now a dev (or devs) who isn't keeping with the program.

I don't know what the dev position was back then, but I don't really care either. The counterbalance to scout chain armor is mage range. Standing next to mob = more damage from AE's, etc., and so more armor is needed in order for the class to properly fulfill its role. Don't argue that scout chain armor is equivalent to light tanking ability. This may have been a small consideration for rogues in previous tiers, but not in T8, and it was never a consideration for predators. No one has a scout tank anything in a raid these days.

Calbiyum · 01-28-2008, 03:01 AM

Mages should do the most dps