Kalidon

id rather they fixed all the in game mechanics and stopped fucking up the classes (upcoming nerf to monks peel for example...) of course thated be step 2 step 1 would be to MAKE SURE THEY TESTED IT and it worked CORRECTLY before they released zones/mobs that are either a) broken or B) broken or and heres the kicker c) not working :P

aduros

Test with what? The Test server is treated like a country club, Q&A consists of 4 people, only 1 of them mammal. They have a ways to go before they can conduct some meaningful tests for their content.

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Argyuile

When I was in EoF beta I took it seriously and was filling out bug reports left and right for over a month. 90% of the shit I bugged was still broken when it went live.

SoE testing is huge joke. I just wish it was funny.

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firamas

there's a HUGE difference between exploiting, and plat buying or account sharing between guildies.

exploiting is universally considered cheating and can completely trivialize encounters by bypassing or mitigating the intended mechanics of a fight. you will never see anyone arguing that exploiting an encounter is in any way legit.

however, you're going to have to explain to me how buying plat or sharing accounts between guildies is considered "cheating" when it comes to raiding. i seriously dont think any RoK raider would even NEED to buy plat, with the massive amounts dropping off raid mobs. and even if they did, so what? that's not giving them the edge like exploiting mechanics would. and as far as sharing accounts... that simply allows you to maintain a smaller guild roster by not having to over-recruit certain key classes to make sure everyone is present all the time. not being able to beat an encounter because half of your bards and enchanters couldnt make it that night due to RL reasons is an artificial cockblock that shouldn't even be considered in terms of game or raid balance.

Amadeus

Equating "exploiting" with "cheating" is fracking stupid.

It'd be the same as if the state you lived in screwed up and put 75 mph signs on the highway instead of 55, and then the police gave you tickets because you were SUPPOSED to know it was wrong.

Anything that can be done with the client without 3rd party software interaction or direct memory/packet manipulation, then it's legit by definition. It's pretty stupid to expect your customers to somehow "know" what's right and wrong. Sure, if someone does something and you're like "oh, damn, we didn't intend that" ..then, by all means, patch it -- but don't hate the players for using the system that you put in place.

This kind of "exploiting = cheating" thing is just lame. Trust me, I know what cheating is.

Faxon

so you are saying this is okay? see definition 2

exploiting

One entry found.

exploit[2,transitive verb]
Main Entry:2ex·ploit Pronunciation: \ik-ˈsplȯit, ˈek-ˌ\ Function:transitive verb Date:1838 1 : to make productive use of : utilize <exploiting your talents> <exploit your opponent's weakness>
2 : to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage <exploiting migrant farm workers>
— ex·ploit·abil·i·ty \ik-ˌsploi-tə-ˈbi-lə-tē\ noun
— ex·ploit·able \-ˈsplȯi-tə-bəl\ adjective
— ex·ploit·er noun



exploiting - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

thesaurus definition

exploit

One entry found.

exploit[verb]
Entry Word:exploitFunction:verb Text: 1 to take unfair advantage of <a student who exploits his friend's good nature by always sponging off him>
Synonyms: abuse, capitalize (on), cash in (on), impose (on or upon), play (on or upon), use
Related Words: manipulate, mistreat; bleed, cheat, fleece, overcharge, skin, soak, stick; commercialize 2 to control or take advantage of by artful, unfair, or insidious means <she would exploit kids who weren't popular, pretending to be their friend just so they'd vote for her for student council> — see manipulate 1 3 to put into action or service <it will be a shame if you do


http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/exploiting



so i dont see your point in cheating =/= exploiting

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Amadeus

This just goes to prove that our language fuckings sucks. These two definitions are so different that I have no idea how both could be attached to the same word. The second definition assumes that a human would have the knowledge that the act that they're doing is wrong; the first does not. "Exploiting an opponent's weakness" does not indicate malice.

What I'm saying is that what SOE calls 'exploiting' is simply people utilizing the client, as it is designed, to produce a selfishly beneficial result (ie, definition #1 above.)

The point is: if it's possible to do without 3rd party software or memory/packet manipulation, then it should be considered legit until SOE patches a change in place. It should NOT be the responsibility of the consumer/customer to know what should be possible or not be possible ..that is the responsibility of the program/client.

Faeth

Many many many years ago - a friend of mine ran a multi-user game (MUD style text based thingy).

His philosophy over such things were - if it's possible to do within the confines of the game - then it's not cheating. However he went after those using 3rd party software to gain an advantage with a fervor - hehe.

So I do kind of understand that arguement - ie. if you achieved the "exploit" by means of using abilities your class has, or inventive ways of coming up with a method of doing things, then potentially it could be not be viewed as "cheating" as such - however I guess I would still call that exploiting a "weakness/loophole" in the program. And then SoE should plug that hole!

So I agree that exploits are definitely a grey area - especially those achieved simply by pulling a mob to a particular spot - or using a particular skill a class has been given.

However an exploit which involve things such as logging/zoning in and out/deliberately LD'ing at appropriate times to deliberately bug something, I feel lies closer to the "cheating" side of exploiting, as this is clearly not making use of a strat or an ability of your class - that is simply trying to bug something to your advantage.

So in short it's always going to be a contentious issue - and no-one is ever going to agree on a punishment level, or whether there even should be penalty at all, as I think that depends alot on the type and nature of the particular exploit.

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Emanji

I find it funny whenever someone killed an encounter by a way that it's not intended to be kill, people would cry exploit. IMO, if you understand the encounter and found a way to beat it, more power to you. In all the guilds I was in, there are instances where we went outside the box to kill an encounter. I don't see it as exploiting, we're just raiding and killing shit, and that's the bottom line.

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Amadeus

I agree with Emanji.

Besides -- who really cares if/how/where/why a guild was able to do what it does? Is cock comparison really that important nowadays?

I just don't understand why people sit around and bitch about stuff that doesn't even involve them. Now, if this were back to the days of mobs always being contested, timed spawns and shit ..then maybe. But, sitting around bitching about what another guild is doing that doens't involve you at all and doesn't impact your gameplay ...is silly.

Reminds me of those republicans that want to create laws and legislate people's private sex lives.