The Ethics of Raiding: Exploiting - Page 4

beezk · 02-29-2008, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amadeus

This just goes to prove that our language fuckings sucks. These two definitions are so different that I have no idea how both could be attached to the same word. The second definition assumes that a human would have the knowledge that the act that they're doing is wrong; the first does not. "Exploiting an opponent's weakness" does not indicate malice.

What I'm saying is that what SOE calls 'exploiting' is simply people utilizing the client, as it is designed, to produce a selfishly beneficial result (ie, definition #1 above.)

The point is: if it's possible to do without 3rd party software or memory/packet manipulation, then it should be considered legit until SOE patches a change in place. It should NOT be the responsibility of the consumer/customer to know what should be possible or not be possible ..that is the responsibility of the program/client.

The second definition has to do with "Ethics". That's what we are discussing. If a sprinter broke the 100 meter world record and there was a 80 mph wind that day... nothing unethical about that. But putting that in the record book without a note about the wind... that would be unethical.

Gtwo · 02-29-2008, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beezk

The second definition has to do with "Ethics". That's what we are discussing. If a sprinter broke the 100 meter world record and there was a 80 mph wind that day... nothing unethical about that. But putting that in the record book without a note about the wind... that would be unethical.

Yes Id agree with you, the community is welcome to have there ethical opinions on kills, but SOE has to stand by there product the way they release it. If people kill mobs in a way SOE did not think of they should patch it, but not punish those who found a loop hole. As for the community's opinion on how it was killed, its fun to come here and flame etc about kills but, personally fuk em.

Chemist · 02-29-2008, 11:25 AM

coming from the guild who claimed ww1st on a bugged avatar, lol

Widem · 02-29-2008, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faeth

However an exploit which involve things such as logging/zoning in and out/deliberately LD'ing at appropriate times to deliberately bug something, I feel lies closer to the "cheating" side of exploiting, as this is clearly not making use of a strat or an ability of your class - that is simply trying to bug something to your advantage.

Thats completely hypocritical of whats being said. If your in the confines of the game then its not cheating. The ability to log in and out is a completely normal process in the game thus can't be defined as an exploit. This is the exact way an ability in game that breaks a code loop to where adds will no longer spawn is completely fine b/c your using what the developers gave you to use.

You can't cherry pick your argument unless you're Hillary Clinton, and if you are I am sorry.

It very obvious many times what is an exploit and what is not. Charming a mob to kill the matron for you, exploit. Bugging Druusk to where he doesn't span adds, exploit. Using CoT to bypass a static mob that you can't defeat, exploit. This list goes on and on.

Gtwo · 02-29-2008, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chemist

coming from the guild who claimed ww1st on a bugged avatar, lol

Did i miss something.....was there a guild posting in this thread.....Fuk off re-re thats coming from me not a guild, I don't claim to speak for my guild, server, community, there my opinions. Please Die in a FiRe AsAp.

Faeth · 02-29-2008, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Widem

Thats completely hypocritical of whats being said. If your in the confines of the game then its not cheating. The ability to log in and out is a completely normal process in the game thus can't be defined as an exploit. This is the exact way an ability in game that breaks a code loop to where adds will no longer spawn is completely fine b/c your using what the developers gave you to use.

Whilst I agree with you that logging in and out is definitely a normal process within the game - one would not normally do such a thing during a fight - so I wouldn't really call it a normal function of an encounter within the game.

Likewise LDing - yes it happens occasionally to all of us - but again, to deliberately LD as part of an encounter, is not a normal game mechanic.

But yes, perhaps I am splitting hairs here..... as I said - that's why is such a grey area.

And whilst CoT/CoH used to avoid something within a zone can also be seen as an exploit, it is a valid ability of a class - and what else was meant by those abilities other than to get a player or players to part of the zone you are in without them having to go through what may be between you and them?

I did say that they can all be classed as exploits - but, at least to my mind, the logging/LDing exploits are closer to what I would term the "cheating" side of exploiting. And the logging/LDing type exploits would seem to me easier (or at least more obviously required if not easier) to be fixed by SoE closing the loophole. It would be harder to prevent the CoT/CoH methods, because to do so would mean taking away valid abilities that have valid uses - unless they could somehow program it so the static mob realises you've just done that, and ports your arse back to him - hehe.

Argyuile · 02-29-2008, 01:27 PM

Mabye its the old everyone driving slower is a moron and everyone driving faster is an idiot.

If your guild did it, it was an insightful way to defeat the encounter using game mechanics. If somebody else's guild did it, its an exploit.

Gaige · 02-29-2008, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanji

In all the guilds I was in, there are instances where we went outside the box to kill an encounter. I don't see it as exploiting, we're just raiding and killing shit, and that's the bottom line.

You don't see it as exploiting because you're an exploiter! This mob has adds we can't kill and its preventing us from killing the mob... thinking outside the box says we should engage it and run to the wall, despawning the first adds and giving us more time to burn the named down. That's not an exploit, that is creative!

To clarify: Its easy as fuck in this game to see what is intended and what isn't intended.

A) Oh shit there is a wall here, we can't get past it until the mobs on this side of the wall are all dead. *Thinking of ways to get past the wall* - hey FUCKFACE gratz on being an exploiter if you get past it any way other than killing the fucking mobs you need to kill.

B) Oh shit these encounters add if I skipped them and pull this orange named. Fuck this guy is hard we can't kill them and he keeps adding on the orange named. Oh snap its a ring event, we can yell it like people accidentally yelled the matron and despawn it, GO US!

C) Ah man these fucking adds make this encounter too hard for us and our grandma tea club dps output. We can't kill the adds. I wonder... *find way to not have to deal with adds besides killing them* GO US!

All of these things are cut and dry. The designer isn't going to design a mob that requires charming a named from the middle of the zone, or /yell'ing a ring event to bypass it. He also isn't going to wall off parts of a zone unless he doesn't want your ass to go to those parts without finishing the area you're in first.

Oh and...

D) Oh shit this named ass tons of adds, the first set of adds are up on pull. Those adds are raping our healers. Fuck... isn't that a climbing wall over there? Pull the named and hop on the wall. YES NO FIRST ADDS. This is obviously intended, I mean FFS he put a climbing wall right there!! How about.. no.

Its not like its hard to understand how shit in this game is supposed to be killed.

Emanji · 02-29-2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaige

You don't see it as exploiting because you're an exploiter! This mob has adds we can't kill and its preventing us from killing the mob... thinking outside the box says we should engage it and run to the wall, despawning the first adds and giving us more time to burn the named down. That's not an exploit, that is creative!

To clarify: Its easy as fuck in this game to see what is intended and what isn't intended.

A) Oh shit there is a wall here, we can't get past it until the mobs on this side of the wall are all dead. *Thinking of ways to get past the wall* - hey FUCKFACE gratz on being an exploiter if you get past it any way other than killing the fucking mobs you need to kill.

B) Oh shit these encounters add if I skipped them and pull this orange named. Fuck this guy is hard we can't kill them and he keeps adding on the orange named. Oh snap its a ring event, we can yell it like people accidentally yelled the matron and despawn it, GO US!

C) Ah man these fucking adds make this encounter too hard for us and our grandma tea club dps output. We can't kill the adds. I wonder... *find way to not have to deal with adds besides killing them* GO US!

All of these things are cut and dry. The designer isn't going to design a mob that requires charming a named from the middle of the zone, or /yell'ing a ring event to bypass it. He also isn't going to wall off parts of a zone unless he doesn't want your ass to go to those parts without finishing the area you're in first.

Oh and...

D) Oh shit this named ass tons of adds, the first set of adds are up on pull. Those adds are raping our healers. Fuck... isn't that a climbing wall over there? Pull the named and hop on the wall. YES NO FIRST ADDS. This is obviously intended, I mean FFS he put a climbing wall right there!! How about.. no.

Its not like its hard to understand how shit in this game is supposed to be killed.

lol I was in CL when Psykil pull the tundras out of the wall in BAOW so we can kill it. Do I see it as an exploit? NO, I see it as a way to beat BAOW. Hell I don't even think that it's any easier than the "intended" way.

When NPU killed the Mutagenic Outkast the first time, yeah we kill off the adds first then climb on the wall, heck we even have another group outside of the raid pulling the other waves of adds. but that is the only way we know to possibly kill the mob, and ultimately the goal of ANY raid guild is to KILL the mob. The encounter got change immediately the next morning and we killed it again with a different strat the next time around (still 2 weeks before anybody else gamewide)

Like honestly, if exploiting is all you need to kill a mob, Elysium would be the Nihilum of EQ2 ROFL. The fact is you need some skills, understanding of the game, and the coordination of 24 people to kill anything worth a damn. I just think all of these people that are acting all "righteous" in this thread are all fucking hypocrite.

Hoss · 02-29-2008, 05:55 PM

So then gaige, if I'm understanding your post and you consider all of those things you listed 'exploiting' (I honestly couldn't tell if c was supposed to be one), then training through a zone to get to the raid entrance in is an exploit as well? Clearly all that shit is there to be killed, and its aggro to harass adventurers. Lets not even get into train and exploit. oops, i mean train and feign.

-h