SOE does not want raiders. - Page 5

Illuminator · 03-10-2008, 02:57 PM

Why bother with that?

Caswydian · 03-10-2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheEasternking

instead of answing my questions with more questions, how about you tell me what games can offer to keep players playing for years other than raiding ?

1. Involved, strategic PvP like you see in DAoC or EVE Online. Random ganking is not fun long term, but a PvP environment where there are large factions fighting for control of some sort of territory (castles, planets, etc.) can keep the game going for a long time. It should be worth noting that the Trials of Atlantis expansion was not well received by the DAoC community precisely because it did focus too much on PvE raiding.

2. Player generated content and player involvement in the administration of the game world. Things like player-run cities or large-scale construction projects which require many people and long periods of time to complete are examples of this. SWG was on the right track with this, prior to the NGE. This sort of a game goes hand in hand with a PvP game, but can function very well as a PvE game, too.

Caswydian · 03-10-2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hearth

Permafrost sever.

What the fuck is this 1% of 1% fucking bullshit. I run around all day and I see everyone is geared out in RAID FABLE.

Here is why raiding is IMPORTANT:

There are 3 main reasons why people are playing this game, and would stick with this game for an extended period of time.

1- Gear/itemization
This is where I think most players log on every night and play this game, it is the progression of their character that is constantly driving them to log on and play. If you are a soloer, you constantly seek out better gear to better your character, but eventually you will have to move onto the grouping, to get better gear from instances. Ultimately you will move onto raiding to get the best gear available. Each stage will require a longer play time, simply due to loot drop/players ratio + loot distributions. (Assuming itemization is not as bad as it is this tier, which is another reason itemization is the biggest problem atm.)

And if you looking at raiding more specifically, you realize that there are more subset with in this group. You have your casual 1-2 nights/week to the 7 days/week guild killing contested for the best gear possible in the game.

2- Questing/Faction
Same logic apply here, how do you further along a quest, you make them progressively harder. And at certain point you will have to join forces with other players (MMO-part of RPG) to tackle on bigger and harder mobs to complete the quest. As for LORE, that kind of lore would it be if it only involves one person. (Imagine, Lord of the Ring(one of the best fantasy story imo, not the gay movie, is all about a solo adventure of a single hobbit.)

3- Reputation/Guild hierarchy
Pretty simple logic here to, what reputation would you get if the game is based on soloer? And you would have guild or have a need for guild.

All these 3 things leads to raiding. Raiding is progression in this game even if you don't raid.

You seem to ignore the socialization part - people enjoy playing the game with their friends, and so they show up because it is a familiar and friendly environment, sort of like your neighborhood bar or coffeeshop.

Orochan · 03-10-2008, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dakkota

raiding avatars makes this look like a cakewalk..

[oldschool]

[/oldschool]

That game was beast XD, man that brought back memories lol

Gage · 03-10-2008, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caswydian

It should be worth noting that the Trials of Atlantis expansion was not well received by the DAoC community precisely because it did focus too much on PvE raiding.

Really? A realm based PvP game's community expected an expansion to focus on realm based PvP? You don't say...

EQ2's PvP was an afterthought attached on because of the success of WoW's PvP. EQ2 has and will always be a PvE game and the epitomy of EQ2's PvE gameplay is raiding.

That is why EQ2's expansion lore story arcs always culminate with the defeat of a raid boss.

PvE raiding has been heavily marketed and built upon in both this game and the original EQ.

So I don't see the quoted comparison making very much sense in context.

It'd be like saying "EQ2's fifth expansion focused primarily on realm vs realm PvP even on non-pvp servers, and ended up not being very well received"...

No shit?

Also it can't be disputed that PvE raiding is a very integral part of MMO gameplay, just consider WoW.

WoW is a casual solo fest to 60, at which point it becomes: Raid, PvP or reroll.

They don't seem to have problems making money with that philosophy, the difference is their game is tested and polished, and this one isn't.

Caswydian · 03-10-2008, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaige

Really? A realm based PvP game's community expected an expansion to focus on realm based PvP? You don't say...

EQ2's PvP was an afterthought attached on because of the success of WoW's PvP. EQ2 has and will always be a PvE game and the epitomy of EQ2's PvE gameplay is raiding.

That is why EQ2's expansion lore story arcs always culminate with the defeat of a raid boss.

PvE raiding has been heavily marketed and built upon in both this game and the original EQ.

So I don't see the quoted comparison making very much sense in context.

It'd be like saying "EQ2's fifth expansion focused primarily on realm vs realm PvP even on non-pvp servers, and ended up not being very well received"...

No shit?

Also it can't be disputed that PvE raiding is a very integral part of MMO gameplay, just consider WoW.

WoW is a casual solo fest to 60, at which point it becomes: Raid, PvP or reroll.

They don't seem to have problems making money with that philosophy, the difference is their game is tested and polished, and this one isn't.

I was presenting alternatives to raiding. PvP is a viable and proven alternative to end-game raiding.

Pinski · 03-10-2008, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caswydian

I was presenting alternatives to raiding. PvP is a viable and proven alternative to end-game raiding.

Yes, it is if the game is designed from the ground up that way. EQ2, however, was not designed that way. So, you're trying to fight something about a game that was designed 1 way and you want to change it. That's kind of like trying to convert DAoC into a PvE game when it was designed as a PvP game!

Gage · 03-10-2008, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caswydian

I was presenting alternatives to raiding. PvP is a viable and proven alternative to end-game raiding.

Only if it isn't an afterthought. If you think the complaints about EQ2 raiding are bad you should probably read up on the complaints about EQ2 PvP.

Both realms of the game are severely lackluster, unbalanced, broken and shitty atm.

Right now two of the most active posts on the official forums are titled "The Death of EQ2 Raiding" and "The death of Nagafen PvP".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caswydian

2. Player generated content and player involvement in the administration of the game world. Things like player-run cities or large-scale construction projects which require many people and long periods of time to complete are examples of this. SWG was on the right track with this, prior to the NGE. This sort of a game goes hand in hand with a PvP game, but can function very well as a PvE game, too.

SWG's player created everything system resulted in a huge database cost for SOE, and I doubt you ever see the same type of system put into a large scale MMO again.

Caswydian · 03-10-2008, 03:23 PM

I was not talking about EQ2 specifically, but MMOs in general. That is the question I was answering. You're right, EQ2 is not a PvP game. A good PvP game needs to be designed entirely around PvP.

Lesdat · 03-10-2008, 03:28 PM

Raiders voices are not the most critical to the game, imo. No game is meant to cater to one aspect. WoW, which is much more diverse in what the game provides for entertainment and no single voice is louder than the next. It is the community as a whole.

We'll see where the future takes EQ2...