icKx

I assumed you were calling me a moron.

If not then I apologize.

feldon30

Sometimes things can be overcomplicated.

Coercer wasn't fun because no pet except for what mobs you can charm (which get nerfed to shit once you charm it -- a ^^^ heroic becomes a regular mob, and then when charm breaks, you're dead meat), coercer doesn't do a lot of damage, and coercer mezzing is not that much better than an illusionist.

So yes, it was just plain not fun and not worth it except for the benefits when raiding. A quick look at stats show that it was the least played of the 24 classes. Do I think SoE should keep "breaking" things until there is exactly 1/24 of the population playing each class? No. But clearly there was something wrong with coercers.

SoE's solution, which time will tell if it was the right answer, was to turn some of the power drains into damage, give the coercer a limited pet, and tinker with charm breaks.

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Laodaron

My comment is to the prevalence with which the term "balance" is thrown around in a gaming community. Balance doesn't mean everyone = same dps, or same heals, or what have you. I'm not saying anyone here said that, just that I'm sick of seeing that term be used incorrectly, or just because someone felt as though they had been nerfed.

feldon30

Balance on PvE to me means "fun" and "is this class worth playing or are all the good features of this class available in another class PLUS utility, dps, heals, pet, tanking, etc.?"

On PvP, class balance becomes central to the game, which is why it's supposed to have a different ruleset.

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Reality

I am laughing my ass off right now. I love these forums sometimes....

Baali

The reason WoW is more successful then EQ2 is a superior end game in all aspects. The content is more challenging, more engaging, far less tank and spank, and there are both challenging and rewarding (relatively speaking) 10 man and 25 man raid instances.

Furthermore, the badge system from heroic 5 mans gives the group dungeon content far more replayability then any in EQ2. In fact, many of the badge rewards are competitive with tier 5 gear, to the point that a raider progressing through tier 6 can run heroic level dungeons to upgrade their gear while they wait on a drop or dkp to fall their way.

Also the reputation and faction reward system in TBC encourages replayability more so then in Kunark. By the time you hit level 80 most of the pertinent RoK factions are maxxed through the process of levelling, whereas in WoW one cannot obtain exalted faction without grinding heroic level dungeons for each faction. The crafting rewards alone warrant this even for the raider, and there is nice gear to be had for the more casual.

Another key difference is RoK has about enough quests to get one to max level with little more, resulting in the levelling process feeling akin to a linear tunnel of quest grinding. WoW has a surfeit of quests to the point that one could level up multiple characters with different zone timelines.

This is not to say I'm a WoW fan by any means. I played EQ I from launch and really wanted to like EQ2, despite the fact that the insipid content of GoD and OoW should have told me otherwise. I also tested and raid tested VG but we all know how that one turned out. . . EQ2 has better overall class composition, with more variety in abilities and playstyles. I also prefer the casting mechanics of EQ2, however though they may be more complex then WoW's, for the experienced and skilled player they become every bit as automated, in raid content that is less engaging and requires less coordination of the raid force.

1-70 EQ2 is more fun then WoW. However 70-80 and endgame in general are tedious, monotonous, uninspired and leave one with little more to do then log on to do the same tank and spank encounters with different graphics and names. WoW raid content, on the other hand, puts more responsibility on each member of the raid force then any game currently out there.

Motoko

WoW raiding could be done by fucking two year olds. Your explanations and claims of knowledge of the WoW endgame sound about as legitimate as me telling you about the endgame in EQ2. Raiding in WoW is monotonous, tedious, and boring. Move here, tank now, taunt now, heal now, use a potion now. If people can pay attention, they can accel to be an end-game guild. Hell, we have members who can't manage to not run into walls during raids their coordination is so horrible yet we're the top guild on our server. Serious business.

The badge system has watered the game down and made the uniqueness of your character almost nonexistent. Everyone looks awesome, everyone does insane damage, and you can pick up four random people and go do any instance in the game. You can even throw together nine people and go do a ten man because yes, they're that easy.

Factions in WoW have because almost pointless. If it weren't for the helm/shoulder enchants, I wouldn't even spend time on them. Back when you needed faction to actually gain access to raid dungeons (did I mention that they removed attunement for every dungeon!?), they were a requirement. Now they're almost optional. I have to add, however, that Scale of Sands and Ashtongue Deathsworn are nice to have. I doubt barely 10% of the playerbase will ever reach exalted with those, however.

Your theory of a person being able to "level up multiple characters with different zone timelines" is absurd. After leveling six characters to level 70, one 69 and a 65, I can tell you from sheer experience that leveling makes me want to gouge my eyes out with a rusty spoon. There are just enough zones to level in that leveling one character is fun, two is alright, and by the time you level the third character you know pretty much every quest and every area in the game. Not to mention, with a recent patch leveling from 1-60 can be done in a week provided you have the time to do so. 60-70 took me two weeks on my most recent character.

I've played WoW since release. I've also played EQ2 to 60, and I don't pretend to know anything about the end-game or the game in general, as I haven't spent much time playing it. But your claims are absurd. WoW has done a brilliant job at taking a great game and turning into a loot FFA where you don't have to put in any effort to get gear (might I add here that back on release, gear was the cornerstone of this game). WoW is more successful than EQ2 because of the targeted age group. Middle school and high-school aged kids flock to the game and it's turned into the new fad in schools. EQ2 has always been targeted at fantasy gamers, and doesn't really appeal to the younger players. WoW will die down before the next expansion, and will continue to lose players even after it's released.


Your experience of the WoW gameplay and the overall game in general is lacking, and from your explanation of EQ2 raiding, EQ2 and WoW raiding are more similar than you think. I plan on trying EQ2 raiding, and doubt I'll like it. Hell, I doubt I'll even like the endgame. But the overall experience of leveling from 1-60 in EQ2 is so much more fun and enjoyment than I ever had in WoW. Save the relationships, I have no reason to go back.

Baali

You're exactly where I was at when I left WoW the first time, shortly after TBC release. Compared to Naxxramas SSC and TK just felt like a huge drop off quality-wise. I was totally fed up with the game and determined that yes--this time--I was going to stick with EQ2 for good. . .

I sincerely hope you continue to have fun with this game, but trust me when I tell you that RoK end game is about as sophisticated as Molten Core and in some cases less. The Leviathan is quite possibly the most boring raid encounter of all time, and VP/Trak are little to no improvement. Compared to the aforementioned the Sunwell and even BT are relatively engaging and exciting raid content. I don't see any great raid pve mmo's on the horizon, so WoW is essentially the best of a bad lot.

My advice would be to play EQ2 casually, as that's where its most fun. Experiment with classes, as there's a lot more variety of playstyles and niches to be had here. If and when you do raid, just don't expect much, for a while at least it will be fun merely because its different. But in general there's nothing here as fun as Naxx or Sunwell, with most encounters very vanilla.

Best of luck and I hope the game is more rewarding for you than it was for me.

Baali

As a comparative example lets examine the Demetrius Crane encounter from SoH and Kalecgos from Sunwell, the first bosses respectively from the most recent raid zone in each game.

Demetrius talks a big game and likes to knock folks around, and has a bit of a memwipe.

Step 1: Dogpile the wall behind him.
Step 2: Loot.

No, I’m not kidding.

Pile everyone in your raid - casters, healers, EVERYONE - into the corner next to the door right behind Demetrius. Keep your backs to the wall. Don’t range the fight. Everyone targets through Demetrius. If you lose hate, don’t worry - the tanks are right there to retaunt. Now just go absolutely nuts on your DPS and you win. That’s it. No crazy AE’s to really worry about, no adds at 20%, no triggered events. Just dogpile and you win.

Now lets take a look at the Kalecgos encounter as a point of comparison:

Arcane Buffet: Deals a small amount of arcane damage and leaves a stacking debuff that increases arcane damage taken. The debuff may stack up to 50 times and is undispellable.

Frost Breath: Deals damage to players in a cone in front of Kalecgos and reduces their attack speed by 75%. Dispellable.

Wild Magic: Randomly buffs / debuffs players with one of the following: +100% Healing, +100% Cast Time, -50% Physical Hit, +100% Melee / Spell Critical Damage, +100% Threat, or -50% Mana / Rage / Energy Costs.

Spectral Blast: Damages a random player, does AoE damage to players standing near him, and creates a spectral rift that may be used by any player. The target of this spell gets teleported to the alternate dimension automatically. Will never hit the main tank or anyone afflicted with spectral exhaustion.

Spectral Realm: Debuff placed on players who enter the spectral realm. Lasts 60 seconds, after which the player will be returned to the normal realm.

Spectral Exhaustion: Debuff acquired upon returning to the normal realm; prevents the player from using a rift again for another minute.

Kalecgos should be defeated very shortly after defeating Sathrovarr as otherwise the arcane debuff will overwhelm the raid. Kalecgos is tauntable, and tanks must switch when one tank has too many debuffs.

This encounter is really two encounters that occur in parallel. The raid first engages Kalecgos' dragon form, but before long he will spawn portals allowing players to enter an alternate dimension. There they will find Kalecgos' humanoid form battling Sathrovarr. Players must defeat Sathrovarr before defeating Kalecgos' dragon form.

The key to this fight is to properly balance the raid across the two dimensions and manage debuffs accordingly. Prior to engaging, assign teleport groups. If one member of a group gets teleported, the rest of the members should follow that person through the rift. This helps minimize confusion during the encounter.

Tanks and healers must react quickly on teleports so the groups can alternate smoothly. Upon switching realms, a tank must take over tank duty on Kalecgos or Sathrovarr, and the healers must quickly start healing the current tank so that the previous group of healers can enter the rift. Remember to keep track of the health of Kalecgos and Sathrovarr respectively as the two must die at approximately the same time.

This is a fair example of the difference in raid content between the two games. . .

Pinski

WoW raiding is so easy a 2 year old can do it? whhhhhhat. Why is it, that not every guild has cleared M'uru? OOOOOOh, I know why, it's because they're only 1 and not 2.

Anyway, EQ2 up to Level 70 is a lot more fun than WoW outside of any end-game content, period. Why? Because you actually group to level, whereas in WoW? You want to level, you solo quests all the way, just like EQ2 for 70-80.

As for End-game, WoW is probably the better end-game, although they keep fucking up and making certain classes overpowered one way or another, or making raid stacking a necessity, which is kind of why I prefer EQ2 to WoW. But honestly, I'd probably rather be playing WoW if I didn't have to level up because there's so much more to do at the end.

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