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Old 05-31-2007, 03:08 PM  
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Default Re: Hate Generation in EQ2

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Originally Posted by Mrhappypants View Post
id say quite a few of what you have posted are not true.

Well I did say in my post that portion wasn't going to be bang on. I hate to say it though, your pretty far off on your responses.
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Old 06-02-2007, 07:16 PM  
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Default Re: Hate Generation in EQ2

Why would anyone want to pull agro from the tank? If your class is capable of this, then managing your agro is just as simple as L2P your class.
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Old 06-03-2007, 01:35 PM  
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Default Re: Hate Generation in EQ2

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Originally Posted by Lockeye
Knightrider wrote:

Hate gain seems to be acquired in 1 of several ways which most commonly include damage to a mob, taunting a mob, and having your pet killed by a mob.

This hate gain of course can be augmented by spells and items.

My questions regarding exactly how the hate is acquired are as follows:

1) How much damage is equal to one point of hate gain (if there is a direct relation at all)?

1 hate point = 1 damage point

2) Why does spike damage to a mob seem to draw more aggro than damage over time?

(Does damage have some type of exponential function associated with it? i.e. If I hit a mob for 500 dmg 2x or hit a mob for 1000 dmg 1x, do they generate the same hate on the mob? Or just for the sake of throwing a number in there, does each hit get an exponential multiplier like 500^2 [(dmg)^(multiplier)] or 1000^2? If this were the case, I would be generating 500k hate from the 2 hits of 500 but 1000k hate from 1 hit of 1000.)

The same amount of hate is generated when the damage is dealt. 1:1

3) Does hate decrease over time, and if so at what rate? This would be another reason for spike damage to pull more aggro than damage over time. If player A does 5 hits of 200 dmg over the course of 10 seconds, and player B does 1000 damage all at second 10 in the fight, player B then has the hate from all 1k dmg while the mob thinks that player A has only done maybe 800. (Just throwing out some numbers.)

Hate naturally decays very slowly, but it can never naturally reach zero alone.

4) How much hate is generated by someone's pet dying? Does the hate which was previously on the pet get directly transferred to the owner?

A pet's death causes the hate they generated to be applied towards the caster.

5) Do taunts generate more hate when a mob is debuffed by a Dispatch or another spell of a similar nature? I assume this to be true, but it's hard to tell with no hard numbers to see how much a person is actually taunting. If this is the case, would it be too much to ask to have my actual taunt numbers displayed?

Taunt amounts are not affected by resists, but lowering resists can help a Taunt from being outright resisted.

6) At what rate does hate decrease? I would assume this would have to be a function of the players level. i.e. Hate is decreased at something like (time * level). So after 10 seconds a level 1 character would have 10 hate decreased, a level 50 would have 500 decreased, and a level 70 would have 700 decreased. (Also I would assume some multiplier in there like (time * level * constant) as 10 hate, 500 hate, and 700 hate reduced for the respective levels in 10 seconds is basically nothing.)

I would have to double check on this one, but natural hate decay is a slow process.

7) How much hate does healing / being healed generate? (This includes wards.) Does healing/warding give a 1 to 1 threat output? When I am healed/warded do I gain some amount of hate from this act, and how much do I gain?

Heals/Wards have less than a 1:1 threat return.

How much hate do debuffs accrue, if any? The best example I can think of is a Brigand's Dispatch. It seems that this spell generates far more hate than just what the damage component reads. This would also include stuns/stifles. It seems that brawlers do a lot of this and seem to pull more aggro than someone else doing the exact same amount of damge. This leads me to believe that extra hate is generated when a mob is stunned/stifled or even if the spell attempts to stun/stifle the mob and doesn't.

Each debuff spell generally causes the same amount of hate appropriate for their level, as do control abilities have amounts of hate that they each generate for their level. Dispatch itself is not the primary cause of grabbing hate, rather it is how a Brigand often combines it with Subdue and Double Up (Subdue having both high damage and a control component hate, and Dispatch having high damage and debuff hate).
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Old 06-04-2007, 08:19 AM  
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Default Re: Hate Generation in EQ2

uhm there are two facts listed in this post that contradict itself, first we have the dev post from long ago which said that aggro decreases slowly and on the other side we have experienced dds taking aggro after death pretty early, which is simply not possible if death clears aggro and aggro decreases slowly, even if we would define slowly as 10% per 6 seconds (which is really not slow at all) you would have to do the dps of your highest parsing dd from the last minute within the amount of time you have from starting attacking until you grab aggro, doing that is way out there, even if you take more time, like 20 seconds you would have to do triple the dps you're normally doing...
this leads to either of 4 conclusions:
- aggro doesn't clear on death
- aggro does not decay slow but rather fast
- there is an additional factor in aggro calculation that has a huge influence which we don't know
- there is a bug in the aggro system...
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:00 AM  
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Default Re: Hate Generation in EQ2

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Originally Posted by alaya View Post
uhm there are two facts listed in this post that contradict itself, first we have the dev post from long ago which said that aggro decreases slowly and on the other side we have experienced dds taking aggro after death pretty early, which is simply not possible if death clears aggro and aggro decreases slowly, even if we would define slowly as 10% per 6 seconds (which is really not slow at all) you would have to do the dps of your highest parsing dd from the last minute within the amount of time you have from starting attacking until you grab aggro, doing that is way out there, even if you take more time, like 20 seconds you would have to do triple the dps you're normally doing...
this leads to either of 4 conclusions:
- aggro doesn't clear on death
- aggro does not decay slow but rather fast
- there is an additional factor in aggro calculation that has a huge influence which we don't know
- there is a bug in the aggro system...


Im going to adress these 4 points right now =)

- aggro doesn't clear on death
Be the only one rezed after a wipe proves otherwise
- aggro does not decay slow but rather fast
get to be number 2 and keep switching aggro with the tank (im a brigand it happens) proves otherwise
- there is an additional factor in aggro calculation that has a huge influence which we don't know
burst DPS is known to draw aggro very very fast.. think of it this way, your number 5 on the "hate list", a necro who usually doesn't have to deal with aggro due to the pet hate split, "lifeburn" is called and you have 4 healers dedicated to healing you, you do 7x as much dps as everyone else in a very short span, the mob's going to notice =), run over to you.. and lay the smack down.
- there is a bug in the aggro system...
nobody can answer this one, if there is ... its a pain in the ass to find.
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:23 AM  
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Default Re: Hate Generation in EQ2

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Originally Posted by Johnathon View Post
Im going to adress these 4 points right now =)

- aggro doesn't clear on death
Be the only one rezed after a wipe proves otherwise
I dont think id completely agree with that. Mainly because it has to do with being in combat and there are ways to be brought into combat that generate absolutely no hate for yourself. That would imply that hate/incombat arent completely correlative.
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Old 06-04-2007, 11:24 AM  
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Default Re: Hate Generation in EQ2

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Originally Posted by Widem View Post
I dont think id completely agree with that. Mainly because it has to do with being in combat and there are ways to be brought into combat that generate absolutely no hate for yourself. That would imply that hate/incombat arent completely correlative.
An extra layer. Still means you have 0 hate when you are rezzed.

Being in combat (which is sometimes easy to counter) just means your going to die again during a wipe =(
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Old 06-04-2007, 11:42 AM  
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Default Re: Hate Generation in EQ2

the way iv seen it work is like this.
You die, u drop off the hate list
You rez you have 0 hate, but your still on that mobs hate list, at the same position, ur just dropping on the list cause ur not doing anything at this point.
Re-engage and that hate starts to get dumped back onto you.

This can be seen easily with a tank. Tank dies, and gets a rez. And in a couple of taunts can usually get agro back...well a good tank can at least.

This is why you can die, rez and not be in combat/have agro, but if you re-engage and start out hard n heavy, you can quickly get agro.
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Old 06-04-2007, 11:44 AM  
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Default Re: Hate Generation in EQ2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistin View Post
the way iv seen it work is like this.
You die, u drop off the hate list
You rez you have 0 hate, but your still on that mobs hate list, at the same position, ur just dropping on the list cause ur not doing anything at this point.
Re-engage and that hate starts to get dumped back onto you.

This can be seen easily with a tank. Tank dies, and gets a rez. And in a couple of taunts can usually get agro back...well a good tank can at least.

This is why you can die, rez and not be in combat/have agro, but if you re-engage and start out hard n heavy, you can quickly get agro.
i see the same thing. i just wish i could somehow quantify it.
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Old 06-04-2007, 04:11 PM  
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Default Re: Hate Generation in EQ2

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Originally Posted by Widem View Post
i see the same thing. i just wish i could somehow quantify it.

For what its worth

there are 2 tables

your numerical position on the hate list

and the other what is your quantitative hate

The numerical hate number is what gives rescue its kick.

Numerical Table
TANK 13
DPS#1 11
DPS#2 9
Healer 8
Healer 8
DPS#3 3

For this example DPS#1 uses mana burn and gets aggro
DPS#1 16
TANK 14
DPS#2 12
Healer 9
Healer 9
DPS#3 8

Tank uses rescue and a few taunts to pull the Raidmob off the tower of wizard.

TANK 17
DPS#1 16
DPS#2 9
Healer 8
Healer 8
DPS#3 3


The other thing you have to think of (other than a order of people on the hate "Position" list.) There's also an accrued hate #.

Same example different person ;-)

TANK 16k
DPS#1 13k
DPS#2 9k
DPS#3 3k
Healer 2k
Healer 2k

These are the Hate numbers in thousands... 1 damage = 1 point of hate.

DPS#3 has lifeburn up.... has 3 healers dedicated to "help the burn".

TANK 17k
DPS#1 15k
DPS#3 10k (half way through the burn)
DPS#2 10k
Healer 2k
Healer 2k

Each TICK does significant damage.

DPS#3 20k (Burn Complete)
TANK 18k
DPS#1 17k
DPS#2 13k
Healer 4k
Healer 4k


The reason I bring up both tables, Ruse and Rescue both have a component that raises threat positions. That enables you to snap aggro back.

What I infer from what raistin says, you lose your accrued hate # when you die.. but not your hate position (this is what allows you to survive a wipe if you haven't re-entered combat or accrued more hate). Also, when tanks come back up and are buffed enough to tank the raidmob, the usually blow all of their taunts in rapid succession... IE a tank version of manaburn/lifeburn. Enabling them to jump back up the list due to the first taunt starts them from the hate position they were at.

IE
Role / Threat / Position
tank / 0 / 16
offtank / 18k / 21
DPS#1 / 17k / 20
DPS#2 / 16k / 17
DPS#3 / 15k / 15

Tank gets buffed and blows all his taunts.. effectively starting with a "base" threat of 15k .. whered i get that? from DPS#3... why? his hate position.. even though the tank has 0 hate.. he "Gains" a base hate of DPS#3 due to his position on the rank. At the end MT takes aggro back.

Kinda simple if you think about it.. just requires a few formulas and BAM your done =)

also, the more threat you accrue in the shortest amount of time = faster gain up the position tree. I believe that to be a curve also, and as the tank run as high on the curve as possible at the beggining of the fight, he / she will hold hate better.

(no i don't work for SOE but this is my "observation")


And if the numbers don't make sense.. byte it.. I made them up to show my point.
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Last edited by Johnathon; 06-04-2007 at 04:14 PM.
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