Hate Generation in EQ2 - Page 5

Johnathon · 06-04-2007, 06:45 PM

Was thinking that when i was driving home.

Lysiana · 06-05-2007, 05:39 AM

just to point some things out:

don't know exactly where, but i read that having highest threat doesn't mean having aggro

it was proved i believe via raw numbers from parses and know skills made during fights (taunts + DMG of the tank vs. DMG from DD), admitting that actually noone has inside view, these are assumptions and thoughts
don't remember exact conclusions and numbers, but it was about this:

having aggro means being no1. in hatelist, nothing more
this does not mean you have highest threat, if position in hatelist would be the same as having highest threat, then why do several skills have threat AND position modifiers? there would be no sense in that...
but it works, and i can give example, experienced by myself:
normal grp-content, i MB the mob, but too early so mob does not die...MT using rescue very often grabs aggro back
how can this happen? fight lasts 10 sec before i throw in that spell....
lets assume average DPS or in case of tank taunt+dps is about 1k...so that would be 10k hate overall...how can he save me hitting for amount of 40-50k?
this would simply not be possible if hatepos is just build through threatpoints

this also explains why rescue does not work always (already been said here)

now, if you accept this as being true...whats the mechanics of getting up and down in the hatelist?

at first, its important WHEN you enter combat...the longer you wait for others to start getting mobs attention, the lower your hatelist will be and with that more things needed to work your way through it to the top
this is also a reason, why 1 heal is not exactly 1 hate, or why its easier to pull mobs of healers rather than DDs
healers have to precast, so technically they are no1 in hatelist initially...making heals not that "threatening" assures they can drop hatelist easier (or encounters would be much harder to manage)...note, i'm talking about hate via HEALS, not, hate that a healer accumulates with damage ;)

second...to move up or down the list there must be one of these things happen:
- generating spike dmg ... think noone can clarify exact amounts here, but there can be several reasons and mechanics for that, some already explained here
this also explains conjurers grabbing aggro when pet dies, on times they actually didn't do very much
- exceed thread of the one above you in hatelist, by a certain amount...again, no exact numbers can be given, but lets just say, if you have 10% threat more than him, you will pass him

a very good point i personally got from this thread, is that you may remain your pos in hatelist when you die
in fact this is the only useful explanation for me, when i'm in raid as healer, and my (just rezzed) wizzi dies instantly again...he just thinks he can throw all in now, thus the spikedmg he produces will shoot him again above tanks hatelvl

alaya · 06-05-2007, 06:48 AM

if the hat level is determined by hate only and you increase your threat level by rescue you will increase your threat to the threat of the person 3 threat levels above you and then add the additional hate to it (thats the reason for having +threat level and hate on one spell), this does explain your tank getting aggro even if he is 30k hate behind you...

i am still betting on the fact that in a 4man or smaller group you'll not be able to in any way increase your threat level by (spike) dmg such that a warrior can't take aggro of you with rescue anymore.

about the spike dmg: i am a berserker and there's really no way at all for me to actually put out spike dmg, my dps is high but it's very much constant, still i have no problem at all to get aggro over dds who do have extreme spikes (and therefor should raise their threat level extremely fast) without taunting.

Whop · 06-05-2007, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminator

- Getting to zero hate by artificial means does not take you off the hate list.

You'll have 0 hate after 1 minute of no action in combat

Illuminator · 06-05-2007, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whop

You'll have 0 hate after 1 minute of no action in combat

"Hate naturally decays very slowly, but it can never naturally reach zero alone."

Zahne · 06-05-2007, 09:01 AM

If it helps,

On my Warlock, If I do pull aggro during the raid and smoke the Pally (And Myself) .. It's still quite possible for me to take aggro a second time during that fight once someone has picked me up and I've rebuffed.

So although hate *may* be cleared on death, I have a feeling your position does remain.

Pinski · 06-05-2007, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahne

If it helps,

On my Warlock, If I do pull aggro during the raid and smoke the Pally (And Myself) .. It's still quite possible for me to take aggro a second time during that fight once someone has picked me up and I've rebuffed.

So although hate *may* be cleared on death, I have a feeling your position does remain.

I don't think hate is "cleared" upon death, but it's more along the lines of the fact that your hate is "paused" and ignored until you choose to re-engage.

Johnathon · 06-05-2007, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinski

I don't think hate is "cleared" upon death, but it's more along the lines of the fact that your hate is "paused" and ignored until you choose to re-engage.

Would be a pain in the ass dealing with that hate in that manner in every encounter.

Its no efficient.

The reason being is the "table" would have to have an extra field per combatant

ie playerID/playerThreatLevel/playerHateNumber/playerHatePaused

And all the code to support the extra column (which may or may not be).

IMO it's more elegant to use playerID/playerThreatLevel/playerHateNumber and deal with zeroing out playerHateNumber and use the same mechanics to up hate really fast using playerThreatLevel.

Also

I think the table is sorted in the following manner
playerHateNumber
playerThreatLevel
playerID

I still believe that the other things that I mentioned are true. They seem to make the most sense (IE Occam's razor)

Pinski · 06-05-2007, 09:45 AM

Aggro isn't meant to be about the most efficient thing, it's supposed to be about the idea. Think about it, if you're a mob, and you kill somebody do you forget he exists at all? No, you keep track of him and if he is revived you'll remember that he was way up there on the hate list when you killed him and damned if you don't do it again.

Zahne · 06-05-2007, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinski

Think about it, if you're a mob, and you kill somebody do you forget he exists at all? No, you keep track of him and if he is revived you'll remember that he was way up there on the hate list when you killed him and damned if you don't do it again.

I guess I was trying to speak to the point, that the mobs should single out anyone pushing the envelope. That shouldn't be restricted to a handful of classes.

Of course this is not EQ1, but EQ1 is a good baseline to use for comparison.

The bard for example in EQ1, was known to generate hate fairly quickly. If you look at what a bard brings to the group, it *makes sense* for it to generate a bunch of hate. Especially if that bard is responsible for a large portion of hate coming from the tank. (Not to mention the other assorted buffs)

What if you have a healer that's kicking out a level of healing that sets it apart from the rest of the group?

I guess it's my feeling they should get smacked around a little.

To further that point, why do plate cleric's have high HP and Mit? They're designed to take a bit of a beating .. but beyond soloing/pvp or flat out training mobs .. there isn't much point to it.

Overall I suppose I miss a dynamic hate system that isn't restricted to only a few classes.