Hate Generation in EQ2 - Page 6

Johnathon · 06-05-2007, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinski

Aggro isn't meant to be about the most efficient thing, it's supposed to be about the idea. Think about it, if you're a mob, and you kill somebody do you forget he exists at all? No, you keep track of him and if he is revived you'll remember that he was way up there on the hate list when you killed him and damned if you don't do it again.

Your theory is sound.

But due to only the playerHateNumber getting cleared and the playerThreatLevel remaining, it neatly fits into the idea.

I don't feel like re-arguing the same point i put in my earlier post. (feel like I'm repeating myself)

If you don't aggre with me.. that fine, I'll agree to disagree =)

Kyrsten · 06-05-2007, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinski

Aggro isn't meant to be about the most efficient thing, it's supposed to be about the idea. Think about it, if you're a mob, and you kill somebody do you forget he exists at all? No, you keep track of him and if he is revived you'll remember that he was way up there on the hate list when you killed him and damned if you don't do it again.

This is almost exactly what I was going to post, although I would propose that there's not any extra coding for a "pause" to be done in the "table" though, as Johnathon suggested. There's actually no need for the game to track anything more than threat position and accumulated threat.

- Tank has mob with threat position of 1 and overall threat of 10,000
- Wizard manaburns, goes from position 3 and 7,000 threat to position 1, 15,000 threat, gets aggro, and dies.
- Wizard dies, threat position is reset to 0 (he's dead), but his overall threat is still 15,000 (slowly decaying)
- Tank uses rescue, moves back to position 1 with overall threat of 14,500 (initial 10k + 4,500 threat from rescue + position modifier )

From here, there are two things that can happen
- Wizard gets a rez, stands there and does nothing (does not rebuff). The mob would still consider him a threat, but as far as the mob knows, the wizard is dead. The wizard's threat condinues to decay, he's still at position 0, the raid wipes, the wizard lives.

- Wizard gets a rez and immediately begins to rebuff for battle. He's actively casting again, and as such he moves back into position on the hate list. He's not number 1 anymore (he died, threat decayed, the tank kept fighting, etc), but he is very likely still in the top 10. He's now active on the threat list and if the raid wipes, the mob will come for him.

Johnathon · 06-05-2007, 10:28 AM

Threat positions would be counting up =) (and NOT sequential, IE Top of threat position list 32, 30, 19, 6, 3, 1).

The reasoning is that Rescue and Ruse increase threat position by 2 - 3. And don't always work.

Kyrsten · 06-05-2007, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnathon

Threat positions would be counting up =) (and NOT sequential, IE Top of threat position list 32, 30, 19, 6, 3, 1).

The reasoning is that Rescue and Ruse increase threat position by 2 - 3. And don't always work.

I did count up ;)

Rescue doesn't work for the following reasons:

- the spell was flat out resisted
- the tank was further down the threat list than rescue was able to account for

Let's play hypothetical situation. Pretend there's a pause button in eq2, and pressing it allows you to see the threat list. Pretend there are no threat transfers or dirge/coercer hate modifiers, and that this is what the top 6 on the threat list are

position 1 - tank - 8,000 threat
position 2 - brigand - 7,500 threat
position 3 - warlock - 7,000 threat
position 4 - wizard - 6,800 threat
position 5 - ranger - 6,700 threat
position 6 - fury - 4,000 threat

Unpause the game. The tank gets stunned/stifled, the wizard manaburns, the ranger unloads, and everyone else keeps doing their thing. The mob starts running all over. Hit pause again:

position 1 - wizard - 18,000 threat
position 2 - brigand - 11,500 threat
position 3 - warlock - 10,200 threat
position 4 - ranger - 9,000 threat
position 5 - tank - 8,500 threat
position 6 - fury - 5,000 threat

So the tank hits rescue, and moves to position 2 with 16,001 total threat (11,501 + 4,500 from rescue). The wizard still has aggro, and rescue "didn't work".

position 1 - wizard - 18,000 threat
position 2 - tank - 16,001 threat
position 3 - brigand - 10,200 threat
position 4 - warlock - 9,000 threat
position 5 - ranger - 8,500 threat
position 6 - fury - 5,000 threat

Johnathon · 06-05-2007, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyrsten

I did count up ;)

Rescue doesn't work for the following reasons:

- the spell was flat out resisted
- the tank was further down the threat list than rescue was able to account for

Let's play hypothetical situation. Pretend there's a pause button in eq2, and pressing it allows you to see the threat list. Pretend there are no threat transfers or dirge/coercer hate modifiers, and that this is what the top 6 on the threat list are

position 1 - tank - 8,000 threat
position 2 - brigand - 7,500 threat
position 3 - warlock - 7,000 threat
position 4 - wizard - 6,800 threat
position 5 - ranger - 6,700 threat
position 6 - fury - 4,000 threat

Unpause the game. The tank gets stunned/stifled, the wizard manaburns, the ranger unloads, and everyone else keeps doing their thing. The mob starts running all over. Hit pause again:

position 1 - wizard - 18,000 threat
position 2 - brigand - 11,500 threat
position 3 - warlock - 10,200 threat
position 4 - ranger - 9,000 threat
position 5 - tank - 8,500 threat
position 6 - fury - 5,000 threat

So the tank hits rescue, and moves to position 2 with 16,001 total threat (11,501 + 4,500 from rescue). The wizard still has aggro, and rescue "didn't work".

position 1 - wizard - 18,000 threat
position 2 - tank - 16,001 threat
position 3 - brigand - 10,200 threat
position 4 - warlock - 9,000 threat
position 5 - ranger - 8,500 threat
position 6 - fury - 5,000 threat

Great writeup... 1 thing's missing is the positions are not sequential... There are 2 things 2 account for.. you got the obvious one down pat.. Threat (aka hate).

Proof that it's not accurate is ... duo of tank / random high dps.

Have random High dps do a lot of burst damage / position changes as possible (tank should throw a taunt or 2)... then have tank use rescue. more often than not.. the mob wont turn. At least thats my experiance duoing with tank friends. I have the same issue with ruse and duo's, it just doesn't work if you don't have enough hate accrued.

alaya · 06-05-2007, 11:37 AM

sorry johnathan but you're idea is in no way occam's razor here, having threat level increase by some spike dmg and not having a sequential numeration for it is not at all simple... plus i still have not seen any indication why there needs to be a non sequential numeration to justify rescue not working, you can't be sure to be number two to four in a raid or full group (plus i am pretty sure you've never seen rescue not work in a group).

occam'r razor leads to a simple list of the current threat with sequential numeration (meaning no numeration needed), whenever threat of n is x higher than n+1 they switch. whoever has a threat below 0 is not involved in combat, whenever someone dies his threat is experiencing a sign change and is therefore not involved in combat anymore, as soon as he engages we have a second sign change and hes gonna switch up to his earlier threat level.
additionally every s seconds the whole table is multiplied by (1-y) (whatever the decay is)

Illuminator · 06-05-2007, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alaya

sorry johnathan but you're idea is in no way occam's razor here

I had no idea wtf "occam's razor" was, so I checked Wikipedia:

This is often paraphrased as "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest hypothetical entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood.

Kyrsten · 06-05-2007, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnathon

Great writeup... 1 thing's missing is the positions are not sequential... There are 2 things 2 account for.. you got the obvious one down pat.. Threat (aka hate).

Proof that it's not accurate is ... duo of tank / random high dps.

Have random High dps do a lot of burst damage / position changes as possible (tank should throw a taunt or 2)... then have tank use rescue. more often than not.. the mob wont turn. At least thats my experiance duoing with tank friends. I have the same issue with ruse and duo's, it just doesn't work if you don't have enough hate accrued.

But they are sequential, there's nothing in game to indicate otherwise. When you use Ruse, does the other person stop attacking? If not, you're going from position 2 to position 1 just as the other person smacks the mob.

position 1 - ranger - 13,000
position 2 - Brigand - 10,000

The Brig uses Ruse, moves up two positions (only one position in this case, since there are only two positions available), become stunned, and the attack portion of Ruse queues up...

position 1 - brigand - 13,001
position 2 - ranger - 13,000

... As the ranger auto attacks for 800.

position 1 - ranger 13,800
position 2 - brigand - 13,001

Johnathon · 06-05-2007, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyrsten

But they are sequential, there's nothing in game to indicate otherwise. When you use Ruse, does the other person stop attacking? If not, you're going from position 2 to position 1 just as the other person smacks the mob.

position 1 - ranger - 13,000
position 2 - Brigand - 10,000

The Brig uses Ruse, moves up two positions (only one position in this case, since there are only two positions available), become stunned, and the attack portion of Ruse queues up...

position 1 - brigand - 13,001
position 2 - ranger - 13,000

... As the ranger auto attacks for 800.

position 1 - ranger 13,800
position 2 - brigand - 13,001

You would see the mob's target disappear or flash to a different target. That doesn't always happen. (Your observation is true that it does happen, just not all the time)

preynar · 06-05-2007, 12:27 PM

when i was a brigand to get snap aggro i would apeal for mercy then ruse, though not often ruse can lose aggro just as fast as it can take it