Spell consolidation - Page 23

Uyaem · 08-10-2007, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadLordOfMilk

Mechanically, less spells and abilities = cleaner database = better performance, gives more room for new stuff if they're pushing their database limits, decreases the # of items (again cleaning up the database and lowering server load), etc. etc. etc.... in terms of "cleanup", spell consolidation makes sense, and if it allows for more interesting (and possibly even more challenging) gameplay like I posted above, then SOE can't lose.

Sorry, but that's nonsense ...
A few hundred abilities less will not change shit.
And I hope the database is not queried every time you use a spell or someone needs to learn to code

(seriously there's no way in hell they do it like that, it's all gonna get cached via the EQ2 server app, possibly when starting the server, loading a zone, ... there's a lot more time consuming stuff going on.).

I agree with you that it opens up more possibilities and removing some of the spells/CAs could be beneficial. Initial hints as to what they want to do, and the way some classes are built (chanters, bards), just doesn't seem like there's a clever way to get it right without massive changes to classes and the world itself.

Widem · 08-10-2007, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadLordOfMilk

I wouldn't say consolidating spells makes the game all that much easier, but I would say it makes the initial learning curve a lot easier on newbies.

How does it make it easier for newbs? All the content lvl 1-40 has already been tuned to be very very easy so that people who havent quite yet learned the full potential of their class have an ability to learn them. They have already been compensated for.

Im going to have to break up comments in this paragraph b/c almost every sentence was the most retard thing i'd ever seen.

What consolidating spells DOES allow is more content like the Unrest encounters, but even more complex - without the actions you have to do being just an annoyance because it breaks your spell orde
Try doing Unrest with a low DPS group (you mean a group that is subpar to the overall populace)...

the nameds are a LOT more interesting that way, and actually require some strategy. (yes i agree, because you are either purposely playing poorly or you just have a bad group)

With the Bartender you have to keep moving out of the way of the ever-increasing number of things he's spawning. They actually stand still and cast PBAoE stuff, and the strategy for that is "keep away from them while still functioning in combat". There's the Hag, who if you can't just speed burn her, you have to actually go and fetch your allies from the cells and have them return to combat. With Screwloose you'll have to destroy bombs he spawns in your bags. With Garanel you have to actually be careful about his AEs and such - they can bring your group down faster than you'd think. In a low DPS Unrest group, I have to actually pay attention, unlike almost every raid mob.

So what you are saying in this is that if you take a group of players that arent very good the encounter becomes hard? WOW no shit. The problem is that these encounters were still poorly designed b/c the casual player would have completely bitched if they couldnt clear the zone. What you just stated is that you need harder encounters. Maybe if those adds from then bartender stifled or something you would have to move your ass or die. but nope, that would be to hard for the average player. I cant understand how you dont see that.

So what's my point? Your point is that the mobs dont have enough hp because you can burn them so fast and you wish that they did more damage so you cant just blow through while ignoring the script.

Well say they made a named that summoned screwloose's bombs to your bags (they do its called avatar of below),
had the hag's "Go to Jail" effect(every encounter that has random ports) ,
summoned the bartender's static AEing mobs (is there a term for stuff like this? it's like a dumbfire, but different), (Pumpkin Headed Horseman's Punmkins)

had the Blademaster Thul massive counterattack temporary buff, and had a fairly strong AE with an emote/text attached to it? (So you want stuff that does way mroe damage, im down with that, but most raid encounters have this kind of thing)

Even if you had mastered the encounter, you couldn't go anywhere near your full effectiveness because you're worried about cycling these debuffs to keep them up and getting this spell off and curing this effect and blablablablabla... what I think SoE aims to do (evidence from one of their most recent zones, Unrest, points to this) is make the challenge of the game come from having to deal with what's actually going on rather than what abilities are coming up. A little less "cast this cast that cast this other ability cast this", more of "cast this, cast that, OH SHIT MOVE, heal, cast another ability, back out of AE, cast another thing, STOP CASTING ZOMG HE'S REFLECTING ZOMG, cast something else, crap he teleported my ally to a jail cell!, SHIT CURE THAT!!, cast, cast, cast, etc".

How in the name of Zues's butthole does spell consolidation change the encounter but to just make it easier. Instead of pushing three buttons to do 1000damage, 500 damage, 2000damage now you just hit one and do 3500damage. Its the exact same except all that crap in between you have to deal with in the encounter just became obsolete. Instead of sacrificing 1 or two of those spells in order to save your ass in the encounter u can just click 1 button for all then take your sweet ass time.
Why am I thinking of all this? Look at Unrest. Also, yes, raid mobs are like this to a small extent but let's face it, more Unrest-style encounters plzthx, the following is starting to get old: a mob that spawns adds every X seconds or X percent, has two to five AEs on specific timers, and has one to two "interesting" effects (memwipes, temporary 100% reflection, charms, whatever). These raid mobs sound complex, but they really aren't.

Your problem is your fighting the weakest of all raid mobs. There are plenty of raid mobs that have the exact same idea as these heroic encounters they are basically just harder. There were some very good scripted encounters in this expansion but SOE just made them so easy the script was meaningless. With the bartender if they really wanted you to run around they would have made it just like PHH so his adds would be IMPOSSIBLE to deal with unless you moved.

Your idea of how spell consolidation impacts encounters is not only wrong its the complete opposite of what would happen. You would be able to do more with less time/thought required. Having downtime (as in not having something to spam) makes it easier for you to judge your surroundings and completely takes away the feat of having to multitask.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadLordOfMilk

If your group isn't geared out well or spectacular, it's quite difficult. If you're in, say, a group full of raiders, you'll just burn down everything in 3 seconds and can ignore all of the strategies that SOE attempted to make required for the mobs. Basically if your group dps is low enough where it takes ~45-90sec to kill the named, your tank is maybe in mixed legendary, and your healer while good isn't spectacular and is using adept3s, they're a lot more interesting. Problem is it's scaled correctly in difficulty for people passing through the levels who want a challenge, not scaled to how ridiculously frickin strong level-capped players have gotten in EoF.

I went through unrest with a complete shit group with my brig who was in full mastercrafted and we had no problems doing anything. The zone was made easy because casual players dont care about the encounters. They care about the shineys. The click their 1 or two buttons and get their loots and they are happy. Casual content has never been difficult ever.

Stinkfinger · 08-10-2007, 01:03 PM

I have a real big cock

MadLordOfMilk · 08-13-2007, 05:14 AM

Ok, quotes don't show up while quoting, so the formatting may be botched a little...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Widem

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadLordOfMilk

I wouldn't say consolidating spells makes the game all that much easier, but I would say it makes the initial learning curve a lot easier on newbies.

How does it make it easier for newbs? All the content lvl 1-40 has already been tuned to be very very easy so that people who havent quite yet learned the full potential of their class have an ability to learn them. They have already been compensated for.
Making stuff less difficult just supports playing poorly as "good enough. Removing unnecessary complication makes the game easier to learn. From what I understand they're removing the unnecessary complexities like having a bunch of different buffs that are up 100% of the time anyway, rather than just having one.

Im going to have to break up comments in this paragraph b/c almost every sentence was the most retard thing i'd ever seen.
I believe you meant "retarded thing" Basic grammar skills 4tw.

What consolidating spells DOES allow is more content like the Unrest encounters, but even more complex - without the actions you have to do being just an annoyance because it breaks your spell orde
Try doing Unrest with a low DPS group (you mean a group that is subpar to the overall populace)... How about a PUG going through the zone when 70 is no longer the cap, and their gear/spells ARE subpar to the current overall populace? You can't argue this game isn't scaled to "levelling through it" difficulty in most group zones even while they're the cap.

the nameds are a LOT more interesting that way, and actually require some strategy. (yes i agree, because you are either purposely playing poorly or you just have a bad group) Or your group setup is just craptacular (two fighters, two healers, an enchanter, and a bard? Stuff like that is not unheard of when almost nobody is on at 3am and you're stuck with a PUG.)

With the Bartender you have to keep moving out of the way of the ever-increasing number of things he's spawning. They actually stand still and cast PBAoE stuff, and the strategy for that is "keep away from them while still functioning in combat". There's the Hag, who if you can't just speed burn her, you have to actually go and fetch your allies from the cells and have them return to combat. With Screwloose you'll have to destroy bombs he spawns in your bags. With Garanel you have to actually be careful about his AEs and such - they can bring your group down faster than you'd think. In a low DPS Unrest group, I have to actually pay attention, unlike almost every raid mob.

So what you are saying in this is that if you take a group of players that arent very good the encounter becomes hard? WOW no shit. The problem is that these encounters were still poorly designed b/c the casual player would have completely bitched if they couldnt clear the zone. What you just stated is that you need harder encounters. Maybe if those adds from then bartender stifled or something you would have to move your ass or die. but nope, that would be to hard for the average player. I cant understand how you dont see that.
Actually the Bartender's adds do three things: "Scorch" does damage, "Ether Cloud" mezzes people, and the ice one (forgot the name) snares and lowers attack speed. Unfortunately, as-is, the guy dies so fast that the adds don't really matter. Scaled up to a higher difficulty (or with a crappy group setup, or when 70 isn't the cap so average gear is a lot worse) it makes quite an interesting group encounter.

So what's my point? Your point is that the mobs dont have enough hp because you can burn them so fast and you wish that they did more damage so you cant just blow through while ignoring the script. No, it's not. The answer is in the same fucking post, read it. Also, the question was rhetorical.

Well say they made a named that summoned screwloose's bombs to your bags (they do its called avatar of below),
had the hag's "Go to Jail" effect(every encounter that has random ports) ,
summoned the bartender's static AEing mobs (is there a term for stuff like this? it's like a dumbfire, but different), (Pumpkin Headed Horseman's Punmkins)
I meant combining multiple things like that, not just having ONE thing you have to watch out for (which really doesn't require any more focus). Also the hag's jail effect is a bit different from random ports in that someone else has to go get you, but not totally relevant.

had the Blademaster Thul massive counterattack temporary buff, and had a fairly strong AE with an emote/text attached to it? (So you want stuff that does way mroe damage, im down with that, but most raid encounters have this kind of thing) I just used it as an example as another thing that you have to watch out for. More damage to players would be nice but that's a totally separate concern.

Even if you had mastered the encounter, you couldn't go anywhere near your full effectiveness because you're worried about cycling these debuffs to keep them up and getting this spell off and curing this effect and blablablablabla... what I think SoE aims to do (evidence from one of their most recent zones, Unrest, points to this) is make the challenge of the game come from having to deal with what's actually going on rather than what abilities are coming up. A little less "cast this cast that cast this other ability cast this", more of "cast this, cast that, OH SHIT MOVE, heal, cast another ability, back out of AE, cast another thing, STOP CASTING ZOMG HE'S REFLECTING ZOMG, cast something else, crap he teleported my ally to a jail cell!, SHIT CURE THAT!!, cast, cast, cast, etc".

How in the name of Zues's butthole does spell consolidation change the encounter but to just make it easier. Instead of pushing three buttons to do 1000damage, 500 damage, 2000damage now you just hit one and do 3500damage. Its the exact same except all that crap in between you have to deal with in the encounter just became obsolete. Instead of sacrificing 1 or two of those spells in order to save your ass in the encounter u can just click 1 button for all then take your sweet ass time.
They're not combining every fucking spell you have into one button, dumbass. They're combining redundant spells that are completely pointless. Also, when all of your spells individually do very minor things, "sacrificing" one or two spells for another really doesn't make any difference.

Why am I thinking of all this? Look at Unrest. Also, yes, raid mobs are like this to a small extent but let's face it, more Unrest-style encounters plzthx, the following is starting to get old: a mob that spawns adds every X seconds or X percent, has two to five AEs on specific timers, and has one to two "interesting" effects (memwipes, temporary 100% reflection, charms, whatever). These raid mobs sound complex, but they really aren't.

Your problem is your fighting the weakest of all raid mobs. There are plenty of raid mobs that have the exact same idea as these heroic encounters they are basically just harder. There were some very good scripted encounters in this expansion but SOE just made them so easy the script was meaningless. With the bartender if they really wanted you to run around they would have made it just like PHH so his adds would be IMPOSSIBLE to deal with unless you moved.
I know they have the same ideas but as I mentioned above, I was referring to how adding more than all of one, maybe two things like that and it's only down to how fast you can move your mouse around as "skill"... though unfortunately as-is there's not much more to it.

Your idea of how spell consolidation impacts encounters is not only wrong its the complete opposite of what would happen. You would be able to do more with less time/thought required. Having downtime (as in not having something to spam) makes it easier for you to judge your surroundings and completely takes away the feat of having to multitask. Giving people a second to think isn't necessarily bad... also, again, it was just a theory as I said. Having a half-second inbetween abilities because they removed two instead of casting literally every second really doesn't change effort at all, I can hit stuff right as it comes up without even watching my hotbars (even longer recasts like Lifeburn on 5min I can guess within about 15-20sec of when it'll come up). You'd still have to multitask, but iff (two Fs intentional, look it up) SoE made it so there was something you had to watch other than your hotbars, which, GOING BY THE CURRENT EOF CONTENT such as Unrest, DFC, and the current contested which you've listed that also SUPPORT what I was using my examples for, seems like they MIGHT do, as a THEORY that I was giving.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadLordOfMilk

If your group isn't geared out well or spectacular, it's quite difficult. If you're in, say, a group full of raiders, you'll just burn down everything in 3 seconds and can ignore all of the strategies that SOE attempted to make required for the mobs. Basically if your group dps is low enough where it takes ~45-90sec to kill the named, your tank is maybe in mixed legendary, and your healer while good isn't spectacular and is using adept3s, they're a lot more interesting. Problem is it's scaled correctly in difficulty for people passing through the levels who want a challenge, not scaled to how ridiculously frickin strong level-capped players have gotten in EoF.

I went through unrest with a complete shit group with my brig who was in full mastercrafted and we had no problems doing anything. The zone was made easy because casual players dont care about the encounters. They care about the shineys. The click their 1 or two buttons and get their loots and they are happy. Casual content has never been difficult ever.All that matters in group content is having a good tank/healer. Now, if your tank is under-geared, healer can't handle the easiest job in the game, and your DPS isn't ridiculous enough to make the fights so short it doesn't matter (very rare in PUGs), it goes downhill. Also, if you think mastercrafted gets the job done for Unrest, try doing it with a tank in Mastercrafted and just one healer, with half the group using adept1s and only their key abilities in adept3 (after RoK this will probably be the common setup, and currently actually ABOVE what the game is scaled to)... each swing will be like he's getting hit by a truck, and the mobs will take forever to die. Or, for a current example, just get a shitrageous group setup of like 3 fighters, a dps, and two healers, and stuff will take forever to kill.

Get the point now? I basically just re-stated everything I just said because you can't comprehend what I was talking about, so I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed I didn't word it well enough. Either that, or you can't freakin' read.

Linyen · 08-13-2007, 07:40 AM

why would anyone ever read all that?
ever heard of...in a nut shell?

MadLordOfMilk · 08-13-2007, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linyen

why would anyone ever read all that?
ever heard of...in a nut shell?

Because even WITH it being over-explained, they still don't get it. *ahem*

Stinkfinger · 08-13-2007, 11:36 AM

bottom line--spell consolidation does not equal dumbing game down.

the proof is other games that are considered more hardcore and complex then eq2 such as vanguard and eq1,,,,,,there is no "button smashing" like there is in eq2

also, since when does spamming buttons every half a second mean more difficult game play? Common sense tells you otherwise.

making CA and Spells worth more by combining them, just makes it more meaningful and gives timing of CA's more important. CA will use more power and have longer timers,,,this opens up more strategy.

why people say less ca is dumbing down the game, they just have no clue, you still have the same abilities you just have to be more careful when and where to use em. EQ2 players been conditioned that whack a mole is hard----when all the facts point to the opposite is true

Illuminator · 08-13-2007, 11:36 AM

I could say, let's get the ball rolling and do the following consolidations for wizards:

Sunstrike and Ball of Lava
Cease and Concussive
Irradiate and Fiery Convulsions
Electrifying Flash and Glacial Winds
Frigid Gift and Iceshape

But these two nitpicking fags:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cochy

When you have more than 1 mage in the group? Think before you say stupid things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Widem

i thought this was pretty goddamn funny and ironic coming from you. Of course you would like these changes. It would have previously given you less of a chance to screw up. Damn 1 button that that does your 2.5k dps really would be great. Maybe then you wouldn't have gotten kicked out of avatar raids and busted out 900zws.

You are also showing you are just as dense as ever. Most people dont use all their group buffs i run 1 most of the time and at most ever use 2. so unless you completely get rid of conc. slots this would limit my options for how i want to apply abilities given to me.

...might be death-gripping their 50 buttons as their pride's last stand.

When Rome is falling, at some point you have to personally stop trying to hold the pillars up with your arms.

Alania · 08-13-2007, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stinkfinger

the proof is other games that are considered more hardcore and complex then eq2 such as vanguard and eq1,,,,,,there is no "button smashing" like there is in eq2

Did you play Vanguard? Oh i didn't think so. Level 50 cleric, and I had 4 hotbars FULL of abilities, and I spammed the fuck out of them. I had to hit 3-4 repeatedly every fight, as they gave buffs to my group or debuffed the mob, and if I got crits and chained it, I would give even better buffs. And that doesn't even count the heals I was throwing down!

Aeralik · 08-13-2007, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminator

I could say, let's get the ball rolling and do the following consolidations for wizards:

Sunstrike and Ball of Lava
Cease and Concussive
Irradiate and Fiery Convulsions
Electrifying Flash and Glacial Winds
Frigid Gift and Iceshape

Nice start but lets do that in the subclass forums please

It's hard to keep up with subclass specifics in a thread like this. Just a thread similar to the epic items with spells you would like to have merged(or things that you wouldnt) would be great.