razieh

AGREED

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RadarX

All the press that is talking about it being stagnant? Like this? I'd love for you to find anyone in business to say 300% growth over 5 years is stagnant. Online games are expanding period.

There haven't been ginormous time sinks? You and I must have different definitions because collecting a bunch of statues didn't really do much for me.

There is no divide, the route they are going just pleasing their current customer base will not do anything for them. People are going to quit the game period. It will happen as time goes on. Now you can continue to try and cater to those people or you can try and bring in fresh ones. That isn't saying they can cater to both, but the extreme ends just aren't going to be happy.

I talked to dozens of people this weekend who have played EQ2 since launch or shortly after who weren't all that upset about the changes so I'm not going to snap judge all the veterans. Some will be upset, some will not.

I work for a game network dumbass. Yes at times I write about EQ2 but I go where they send me.

LeetPwnage

"Now"...do you understand English?

Yes, lets get rid of any effort in the game. Getting statues was a "ginormous" timesink?

You have got to be kidding me? You think that the people at the Fan Faire represent anything of a cross section of this game? I was actually talking about people playing the game.

Do they send you here to defend it, Dumbass?

Talonis

Sorry for the tardy reply, work is disturbing my EQ2Flames posting today.

It appears to be counterproductive to fundamentally change a game like this 3 years into production. People that have played this game for more than a month at virtually any point in EQ2's life, know what they have gotten themselves into. It is not difficult to see the dev team has striven to please gamers from all walks of skill and play style from go. (even if not always accomplishing that goal which is purely subjective.) Even at the casual level, this game is far more cerebral than many others of its kind. It would not require much for them to polish the game and get closer to that goal.

But throwing in the towel and saying "Sorry hardcore folks, we tried and couldn't do it, so we are gonna just concentrate on Holly Homemaker and her army of crafting alts." - is a major cop out and would certainly leave me with a distaste for anything they produce in the future. Don't forget this isn't the first 'event' either. The failure of NGE wiped SWG off the map. Will massive carebearification do the same to EQ2? Possibly. I guess that is the risk they want to take.

If they just concentrated on making a good game, the 'Field of Dreams Effect' will occur. Make a good fucking game and they will come. Screw focus groups and target audiences.

Speaking of fundamental makeovers, I would like to note that your continued passive aggressive attitude towards hardcore raiders shines brightly here. So much for unbiased gaming journalism, not that you have ever reached for that lofty goal. Yet another Radar participation thread where I have an "Us vs. Them" feeling wash over me that I did not have prior to you posting.

Tokamak

I fixed your comment for you, because it was all completely wrong.

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RadarX

Three replies...I'm warm and tingly.

They are getting rid of what you perceive is effort I think you mean. This is a game which many utilize for the purpose of entertainment. If people aren't entertained, they go play something else.

Yes the statues were a time sink. How many people have you seen going "WOOOO I had a blast collecting 50 statues!" Anyone?

You have to be kidding ME. You think EQ2 Flames really represents a cross section of this game? Probably a quarter of the people who post around here are "retired" and pop in and out at their leisure. Another quarter are probably the 1% of 1%. And yeah thats based strictly on observation but can't be any more accurate than your guesses. So who are we really counting? What makes your opinion more valid than the guy who doesn't even post on the official forums?

I don't need to defend it. When EQ2 is still running a year from now, it'll stand for itself.


You actually make some really great points. I'll counter with a couple:

1) How many people have played since launch that are still playing? As time goes on statistically you are going to lose more players. It's just a matter of how quickly. EQ2 has been slower where as VG was quicker.

2) How is focusing on one aspect of the game "throwing in the towel?" You are still hung up on the old school raiding system which seems to be going away. It's not just EQ2.

3) Your Field of Dreams theory is just that. A dream. If you really believe after 3 years a game can magically explode to life you haven't followed many MMO's. The single exception to the rule I can think of is EVE.

4) Your last paragraph almost wounds me. I don't really write much about EQ2 like I used to so this is more my personal opinion. Journalists are allowed to have those not that I'd consider myself one. I'm not sure where you are getting the US vs Them though. I seem to be the only one saying what I'm saying. At the end of the day we're all subscribers and what's best for the game has to be done. Unfortunately some of us aren't going to see eye to eye.

They fixed Nek because it was a friggin nightmare to try and navigate, harvest, and generally hunt in.

LFG

I believe SWG also now has the largest active player population in the history of that game. Yes, now, even after NGE.

If they found a way to tear many of the guts out of VG and add them to EQ2, and then actively promoted EQ players moving to EQ2 rather than continuing to shock EQ back to life over and over, I honestly believe this game would add subscribers like the industry has never seen before.

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"Bottom line: we're not all being honest with ourselves here." Become, Kraken forums

RadarX

SWG has done some amazing work but the normal cycle of an MMO is a spike followed by a long decline. Even with something as radical as NGE it just shifted the spike to the right a bit. I don't buy that MMOGData is all that accurate but even if you just took it as ratios they show half as many players as they had in late 2004.

The problems I see with massive revamps is first you are talking about basically relaunching a game which hasn't really worked...ever. Once a game has been reviewed people have made up their minds. Sure some will come back, but a majority of the industry will give it a nod like the Little Engine that Could and go on to the next big thing. Second as all these threads have shown? People don't like change. That is an enormous change.

I'm not saying nothing would make my heart happier than to see EQ2 double in subs in the next expansion. I'm just a realist/pessimist.

ahdam

First off i got to say im a HUGE fan of EQ2. I want triple the subs, packed zones, groups everywhere, Q harbor and EFP FULL of players, 50+ Servers .... but , thats highly unlikely.

As much as i hate to admit it, RadarX is correct. Its All about the Money.

SOE is a buisness like all buisnesses that is striving for maximum profit. And u can be dam sure that Corperate Sony asking SOE every quarter, "What did you do to maximize your revenue?" is driving many of these decisions. be them Good or Bad vs YOU.

You/I can blame the average MMO player and the untapped market. They are ignorant, mobish, unaware of this debate and impervious to your/mine opinions. They do not Post, or read forums, compute combat changes to the Nth degree. They merely log and Play. The vast majority of the market wants instant gratification, ease of playability, minimal brain function. If they wanted actual Work, why would they play a PC Video Game?

The 1% maby 2% these forums represent are really just a drop in the bucket Vs the potential market profit. Would i loose possiably 100,000$ to probibly make 2million$? You dam right i would, So would any 1 else with a fucking brain.

That is the Problem---> the Market, not the game.

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Ahdam Smashr 80/0/140 Guard
Cinnz Izbad 70+/0/100+ Defiler
Yummy Izbad 70+/70/100+ Shadowknight (retired)
Vissara 70+/0/100+ Bruiser

Firza

That its all about the money we all know. Its nothing new. What we have here is a basic difference of oppinion concerning what actually makes money.

Radar is agreeing with SOE that if the game becomes easy enough plenty of people will register and become new long term customers.

many people here think that you will have to do more then make things easy to attract that crowd.

EQ2 started out for the mid-hardcore player, and has been slowly declining the challange of the game to now be just harder than the easiest games out there. (if not on par)

The difference of these easier games is however that they often have the easy crowd allready. Not like EQ2 the mid crowd.

the only correct question to marketeers is: Can we change our target group successfully, without loosing our current subscribers base.

Since we all know SOE marketing pritty much sux I would not ask it to them, but would like some non biased oppinions about that.

Personally I grind my teeth every time anouncements are made that some part of the game is again been made easier. I am not a Hard Core player. With 2 nights per week thats impossible for me. Still I like my challenge. I know older players who do not like challenges, and younger players who do. Age has nothing to do with it...although I do feel ancient now and then.

The only thing I know for sure is that if SOE does not improve on game availlabilitie and marketing WW they will never be able to draw a full new crowd. SOE's games are not on shelves, not even in the USA. they are hardly ever adverticed. (don't forget, the easy crowd is not reading online magazines about games) never on television. Not mentioned by their mother company.

My personal oppinion:
SOE could improve their player base by paying more attention to marketing. Any product has a life span. This is different for MMO's in that they can be given renewed life with every expansion. For ONCE pay attention to this come the launch of RoK. Invest in WW attention to RoK. not just some internet magazines. But be present. Show yourself to be an older and better game then the widely known competitors. Show that we got something good going. and for god sake....stop being a copy cat.