Hakk'n'slash

As I am not one to spam several different topics, I'll roll it all into 1 post.

Please keep in mind that I am only level 71 at this time, so the "you be doing this at level 80" comments do not apply.

Thanks for the responses.

1). Is there an acceptable ratio for Mit. Vs HP/Stam? Meaning it is ok to lose 20 mit if you gain more than x hp's (I use 3.5 hp per sta in my calcs).

2). Knowing I'll get better at some point, in the interim, I have some rings that add +4 defense, + aggression etc.. Do the +'s make that much of a difference that I should keep them over replacing them with MC ring at 72 or other rings that may add more hp's/sta?

3). As it relates to AA's, being currently under 100 AA, do you advise concentrating on parry or haste in the Int line? (I have 9x AA's, str @ 4,4,8; sta @ 4, 4, 8, 8, ; I also have the 6 lines of dps inscrease from the guardian tab.)

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Hakk N'Slash
Level 80 Guardian
You think my typing sucks, let's see you type all this shit out on a BlackBerry!

Chumann

1) I think people's view on mitigation here varies. By that I mean I think some people put mitigation in higher regard and importance than others will. For me, I say fuck worrying about mitigation, basically because as long as you're wearing plate armor that's legendary quality or better (and appropriate to your level), you will always have sufficient mitigation for anything. If I were to rate the order of importance for tank attributes, it would be avoidance first, HP second, and mitigation way at the bottom.

2) It depends. I know this isn't the answer you were looking for, but it really is the best answer without you giving more information. What is your play style? Do you solo/small group, tank group instances? Will you raid? Will you be the MT of said raid? Each play style and scenario will yield a different answer to this question.

3) For what it's worth, I think you need to max out your warrior tree first and then worry about the guardian tree. As for your question about parry or haste in the INT line, the simple answer is both. The two most commonly used warrior AA trees would probably be (assuming you're specced for buckler)...

STR 4-4-8
AGI 4-1
STA 4-4-8-8
INT 4-4-8-6-2

or...

STR 4-4-8
AGI 4-4-8-6-2
STA 4-4-8-8
INT 4-1

The first is more of a single target spec. It optimizes single target damage with haste and ability refresh, and adds an avoidance bonus. The 5 points in AGI just add another aoe to your hotbar if and when you need it.

The second tree is a design primarily for multiple targets. It optimizes multi-target damage with aoe auto attack. It also adds an avoidance bonus and gives you Dragoon's Reflexes. The 5 points in INT make sure you keep Acceleration Strike which is arguably one of the better AA abilities on any tree out there.

Focus on the warrior tree first and max it out with 70 AA. You'll see more overall benefit from the warrior tree than the guardian tree.

Hakk'n'slash

Thanks for the input.

I do try to look at the overll stats of an item before just swapping out for mitigation alone.

As far as my habits, atm I solo more than anything (talk about fekkin slow!!). I am the MT for my guild (only member with decent play times). Once I get more levels, we'll be hitting some of the harder zones. (I 4 person-group tanked Shard of Fear the other night, but couldn't kill Terro(?), which was good in my eyes). I've also single group tanked Hall's of Fate(Pick up group) again, a good step IMO. However, I've found pick-up groups very painful when going inside MMC. Unrest trash tanking was fun, but Bugaboo fekkin sucked when he kept 1- rounding me.

I don't mention any of the above as anything other than a guage of what I've been trying my hand at tanking. As I am sure that just about any guardian can tank for normal group zones. Yet not much can be learned from normal areas.

In the area of AA's, from most everything I've been reading lately here, if a good portion of my agro is going to come from my dps (yes, I am speccing for Buckler), I find myself confused by the suggesion that I drop the Guardian tree AA's until I have th 70 in the warrior tab. Please explain.

__________________
Hakk N'Slash
Level 80 Guardian
You think my typing sucks, let's see you type all this shit out on a BlackBerry!

Chumann

The reason is because the warrior tree will net you more of a total gain in dps and avoidance, therefore making you a better tank faster. The warrior tree is just a better tree imo. If specced correctly, I think you'll find more net gain in dps and overall avoidance if you max out your warrior tree.

The warrior tree adds 60% double attack, acceleration strike, + to parry, haste, aoe attack, 12% faster reuse, 20% faster recovery, melee crit, an extra aoe, and 8% uncontested avoidance (taken from the first spec listed in my previous post).

The guardian tree adds + combat art damage, 9% double attack, block, and defensive ability reuse speed. IMO, there's absolutley no comparison of net gain from the warrior tree vs. the guard tree. Generally speaking, the warrior tree sets the foundation that makes the guardian great; the guard tree is just icing on the cake.

Chumann

Going back to your original question #2..

2) The +'s to parry, defense, aggression, etc. do provide benefit. However, the benefit you'll see becomes exponentially less the tougher the mobs get (i.e. raid mobs). In general, I would say bonuses to defense and parry are minimal in a raid setting because of diminishing returns. Note minimal, not non-existant. +'s to aggression means almost nothing to me, but that's just my opinion.

The imbued mastercrafted ring of STR is surpisingly one of the better dpsing rings available, however many guardians probably (note probably) opt to something more defensive at this point, especially those that have been raiding in t8 for a while.

The best way to increase your avoidance is to look for items and/or adornments that give a % increase to parry or bock. This is because % increases are uncontested avoidance (i.e. it doesn't assume the offensive skill of the mob vs. your skill to avoid, it's just a flat out increase in % chance to avoid.) Fabled wrist adornments and fabled weapon adornements will give you % increases to parry. The fabled t6 shield adornment will give you % increase to block. There is also low tier t8 raid gear that grants block and avoidance % increases.

Soulfire (the t7 epic quest line) also grants a 5% block increase and is still the most defensive non-mythical available for guardians. The damage on it is pretty low though at this point, but it can be a significant piece if you're just starting at the raid game.

Conqueror_Beld

To the OP: Chu makes a good point that can be applied to alot of your decisions. If everyone is starting out on raids, their gear will typically blow so you won't see a whole lot of high DPS parses (which is what requires high aggro generation from the MT) and your healers won't have alot of the nifty blue bonuses on their gear yet. So, you're goal is to stay alive as long as possible because the fights will tend to be longer and the healers will have to work harder.

As your raid force gets geared out better, their aggro will creep up and your healers ability to keep you alive will creep up and so you have to adjust towards more DPS and less defense along the way.

Chumann

True.

If you're in a p/u group or any other sucktastic scenario, you'll more than likely find a more defensive approach will yield the better result. That means that any additional benefit to avoidance or HP takes precidence (sp?) to more damage.

The better your group/raid is, the easier and more effective it is to have an offensive setup. In truth, aggro in a well setup and precise raid force can be hard to control if you sacrifice dps for all-out defense.

Hakk'n'slash

Correct me if I am wrong, but one of the reasons behind the CA agro mentality is due to all the + CA from the lvl 72 MC gear. That said, at the same time, casters get the same +'s to spell damage, thus keeping their agro somewhat on par with the tanks. So keeping agro/taking the beating is where I am trying to concentrate atm. (Thus questioning the suggestion of pulling out of guardian tab and maxing warrior tab)

That said, TBH I am one of the lowest level raiders we have atm. (I don't see it as a bad thing). So any agro issues we (I) have are really to be expected and highly self inflicted. (You should have seen the trouble I had keeping agro against a lv 80 bruiser at lvl 67. It was a riot to watch.)

Now, as I try to take pride in what I do, I do try to learn more about my class and how to be better at it. So I appologise if I miss or misunderstand something.

__________________
Hakk N'Slash
Level 80 Guardian
You think my typing sucks, let's see you type all this shit out on a BlackBerry!

Chumann

I'll try to summarize:

The warrior tree increases your auto attack damage with haste / acceleration strike, double attack. It also increases your tankedness through avoidance bonuses.

The guardian tree increases your combat art damage and reuse timers on defensive abilities.

+ to combat art damage on gear or not, you'll more than likely see a better dps gain from the warrior tree. 50% or more of your damage is done from your auto attack. My best damaging combat art over an extended period is Precise Strike. Precise Strike equals roughly 6% of my total damage output. Hopefully this makes you understand that combat arts are not your premier source of damage. All of my combat arts combined do not equal the damage done by auto attack. Generally, 55% or more of my damage is "slashing" (auto attack damage). Not to mention the warrior tree will help you stay alive better than the guardian tree will.

In your initial post, you noted that you didn't want to hear about being lvl 71, yada yada yada, but I'm here to tell you that you can't judge how you're doing or what you need to improve on if you're the lowest lvl raiding character in your guild. When everyone is on an equal playing field (that means everyone is lvl 80 with 120+ AA and comparable gear), then you should note your experiences again and bring them up for discussion. Until then, it's not really worth worrying over. Your only worry should be to get to 80 and compare yourself to other guardians in terms of stats, mit/avoid %'s, HP, and gear.

Issues with aggro/dps/survivability all dramatically change when you get put on an equal playing field with the people you raid with.

Chumann

Caster damage (with the possible exception of enchanters) should be far better than any tanks damage in every situation, period. The reason why +spell damage is so good for them is because they don't auto attack. Every bit of damage comes from a spell. If all we did was use combat arts then double attack/haste/dps mods would be worthless and +CA would reign supreme.

That's what I'm trying to tell you. The warrior tree does this more effectively and more efficiently than the guardian tree.