Guardian Revamp Starting with what is broken. - Page 4

Ower · 06-17-2009, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mezelline

To be brutally honest, I'm actually happy where guardian aggro control is right now. You folks haven't *lost* anything with TSO, its just that other tanks have *gained* tools that puts them on equal footing with guards as far as aggro control goes.

The other tanks needed to have guardian-quality single target aggro control in order to have a shot at MTing effectively; otherwise the guardian monopoly would have stand. And guardians still have the best survivability, so the other tanks needs AE aggro control or dps as a "niche" to keep them useful in raidforces.

I'm not denying that Guardians could use some love though, I just think it should come in the form of increased survivability. Anything else would make Guardians "the ubertank" again, and send all other plate tanks to bottom. SKs and Guards are too close in survivability atm (even though bloodletter has several downsides that most people dont consider), and something should be done to fix that. Maybe something like a genuine enhancement to ToS, improvement of your DP, and an adjustment to the mythical to make it more defensive.

Erm? i have to say you know nothing about any of the tanks if you think they have the same hate on singel target.

Sk freaking blow out guards on singel and on aoe aggro.

zerks do kinda much the same dps or some more on singel target 25% inc dmg to hate makes zerks a winner here.

Amends on a assassin and the pally win with ease on singeltarget aggro.

So how on earth can you even say that tanks are equal and balanced on singel target??? The fact that i am kinda much fucking forced to DW as often as i can is retarded when SK:s do x2 more dps and still can keep the shield. this is the guard forum if you are here to try and state something for not nerfing your class pls go away or stop trying to state shit you have no clue on.

Daal · 06-17-2009, 03:31 PM

I just laugh and shake my head when non-guards come in here saying we are just fine....yet they are the same classes who bitched and moaned for so long to get both guards and their myth nerf'd...truely comical

Daal · 06-17-2009, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ower

imo its a junk debuff :/ Gives very litle debuff and debuff your own dps.. The worst fear i have with using it is someonegrabs aggro and im casting something els or to slow to canacel it so mob run out of range and kill someone. Has happen befor... So i never use it anymore. Same as KB:ed away... a few times. Since to me... a rooted target shouldent be KB.... But all it does is to keep you from running... And the fact that it dont even work on fear... thats test two i did back in the days... ended up with the mob on the wrong spot for some secs thats all.

For those who remember back when t7 was the cap, the immobility line (called plant back then) was a tad better...epics did not gain an immunity, never remembered ever geting knocked back while using it in raid but those days are gone...if soe wanted to improve that ability for raids a few fixes would make it viable again..take away epic immunity, remove the chance to dispell when targets take damage and put an anti KB immunity in there for the guard...would make it a very viable ability for controling ae mobs..least somewhat.

Mezelline · 06-17-2009, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ower

So how on earth can you even say that tanks are equal and balanced on singel target??? The fact that i am kinda much fucking forced to DW as often as i can is retarded when SK:s do x2 more dps and still can keep the shield. this is the guard forum if you are here to try and state something for not nerfing your class pls go away or stop trying to state shit you have no clue on.

Because guards hold single-target aggro just fine even with 1H+shield. Because Crusaders cannot DW, and berserkers have the same aggo problem guards if they don't DW. Its true that zerkers can frontload with the rampage line (whatever its been renamed now), but Guardian CAs actually does more damage than their Berserker counterparts, look that shit up.

Also, when talking about class balance its important to, ya know, have actual knowledge of the classes you're being balanced against. I dont' have any experience with a guad so I wouldn't presume to give specifics as to how you should be changed. But I do have extensive raid experience with the other 3 plate tanks; and believe me, guardian balancing has always effected them dramatically.

Atavax · 06-17-2009, 08:51 PM

guardians already sacrifice survivability for threat through aa. to suggest that guardians need more survivability when we're readily giving it up is retarded. we need more single target threat, so we dont need to give up survivability inorder to hold aggro in raids; and give us the option to give up survivability for better single target aggro control so that we have more flexability in group composition in 6 mans. we arent seeking to be equal to other tanks, the point of having different classes is for them to be different; atm, they have our strengths, but not our weaknesses. we need to maintain our single target strength, which we currently dont have.

Ower · 06-17-2009, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mezelline

Because guards hold single-target aggro just fine even with 1H+shield. Because Crusaders cannot DW, and berserkers have the same aggo problem guards if they don't DW. Its true that zerkers can frontload with the rampage line (whatever its been renamed now), but Guardian CAs actually does more damage than their Berserker counterparts, look that shit up.

Also, when talking about class balance its important to, ya know, have actual knowledge of the classes you're being balanced against. I dont' have any experience with a guad so I wouldn't presume to give specifics as to how you should be changed. But I do have extensive raid experience with the other 3 plate tanks; and believe me, guardian balancing has always effected them dramatically.

Can i hold aggro with a shield and 1hand? yes. But its sure isent as easy as i have it with my SK. And i dont even have the myth on my SK... odd huh? The only solid way for a guard to be great on aggro is to DW. And dw = you take more hits. But my point is the other tanks do it better. guard CA:s do more dmg? yes? I have a 80 zerk aswell you know. And a 80 SK.

You dont have any experience with guards at all yet you claim that we hold aggro best on singel target?

And no guardian is a raid singel target tank. Designed to take hits. That is why the rest of the tanks been crying for a nerf on the guard class for so long. Even tho they make better OT:s are better group tanks and are shit load of better to solo.

As i said this thread was to help the guard class with a few fucking fixes and the small issues we have atm that would make the tanks more balanced pls dont turn this fucking thread in to what the rest of the milion threads around here are like... If you think the classes are balanced as it is feel free to think so i dont care.

ahdam · 06-20-2009, 01:35 PM

They still are looking into tank balance so i repeat.
Guards need an increase in survivability, Mythical Reveiwed, and a small bump in aggro generation.

1) TSO end line ability: Veteren's Sheilding = +1% Crit mit and +1% to all worn armor mitigation, per rank. Total of +5%/+5%

2) Mythical should generate 25% of a stone skin into Hate. or Increase the Proc chance of Sentinal Sphere by 100%. Restore full time 10% reduction.

3) Double all numeric threat values for Guardians on any ability that has that effect. its not DPS, its just threat. and make the passive HtL buffs unresistable.

4)Sentenal Strike and Cry of the Warrior should land more often.

5) TSO endline:Tower of Steel. +1 stoneskin on TOS.

6) TOS Endline: Repremand = +1000 hate and +4 position per rank.

7) Add H8 to Sheild Slam ability.

A small adjustment in damage output and a moderate increase in standard threat generation is all that is needed. not all that crazy stuff that was scrapped.

We run with 3 and sometimes 4 fighter classes in raids now-a-days and thats perfectly fine and prolly as it should be. the Raid content of 1 or 2 tanks r over IMO. 3 fighters = our standard build.
Reestablish what u want a Fighter to do, then slightly adgjust them there.

and BTW, the Argument of AE tanks VS Single Target tank is flawed logic because it it non-reversable.

Ower · 06-21-2009, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahdam

They still are looking into tank balance so i repeat.
Guards need an increase in survivability, Mythical Reveiwed, and a small bump in aggro generation.

1) TSO end line ability: Veteren's Sheilding = +1% Crit mit and +1% to all worn armor mitigation, per rank. Total of +5%/+5%

2) Mythical should generate 25% of a stone skin into Hate. or Increase the Proc chance of Sentinal Sphere by 100%. Restore full time 10% reduction.

3) Double all numeric threat values for Guardians on any ability that has that effect. its not DPS, its just threat. and make the passive HtL buffs unresistable.

4)Sentenal Strike and Cry of the Warrior should land more often.

5) TSO endline:Tower of Steel. +1 stoneskin on TOS.

6) TOS Endline: Repremand = +1000 hate and +4 position per rank.

7) Add H8 to Sheild Slam ability.

A small adjustment in damage output and a moderate increase in standard threat generation is all that is needed. not all that crazy stuff that was scrapped.

We run with 3 and sometimes 4 fighter classes in raids now-a-days and thats perfectly fine and prolly as it should be. the Raid content of 1 or 2 tanks r over IMO. 3 fighters = our standard build.
Reestablish what u want a Fighter to do, then slightly adgjust them there.

and BTW, the Argument of AE tanks VS Single Target tank is flawed logic because it it non-reversable.

Imo we dont need that much more survivability... And some of the things you posted here would destroy some of our AB:s... Sphere is not designed to be a omg button. Its designed to be a group saver first. Sure everyone use it for the stone skin. but 100% proc rate on it... That would blow out the idea of it. All that need to be done is remove the shield dmg on tos and make the dmg reduction up all the time on myth... boost the proc rate on immune stuff and adds some sort of hate proc to it. bam guard class fixed and balanced.

ahdam · 06-21-2009, 09:48 AM

increase by 100% = double its proc rate. NOT make proc rate 100%. and i want my mythical to have a passive hate component like every other fighter class.

but ya, some small adjustments would do the trick. but it would be nice to have some nice TSO AAs (like the other fighters get) to look forward too

Ixer · 06-21-2009, 12:57 PM

How about a hate increase based on 10%-15% of the damage we take. With the avoidance that most of us have its not a huge amount. Or they just need to make aggression be a larger value of hate then physical damage and increase our taunts and that a bit.