Guardian Revamp Starting with what is broken. - Page 9

gungo · 07-21-2009, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fungie

I'm not talking about me. I'm talking about the class in general.

Would you respect Trumak's opinion if he came on here and said, "I don't know what you're talking about -- I can hold aggro just fine"? I know I wouldn't, since it's not taking into account the 95% of guardians that don't have trak shield and avatar charms, and the 50% or so who can't keep aggro worth a damn and often quit playing their character because of it.

Paladins don't even have to be at the keyboard. Do you understand that? A level 50 paladin can tank, holding aggro off level 80 dps, while the paladin is out picking up fast food, taking a shower, or taking a dump. Can you see the problem there? That 50% of level 80 guardians can't do what a level 50 paladin can do while being AFK?

Obviously you never played a paladin and have no idea what you are talking about. It is easier on aoe yes, but go ahead and afk and come back to a dead group.

You are whining about a class that is not even the worst tank at agro. I have done pickup groups with plenty of guardians who can clear these zones w/o agro issues by using the tools they have with common sense such as moderate. And your opinion that only raid geared tanks like trumak can clear heroic content is flat out fucking rediculous.

Fungie · 07-21-2009, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gungo

Obviously you never played a paladin and have no idea what you are talking about. It is easier on aoe yes, but go ahead and afk and come back to a dead group.

You are whining about a class that is not even the worst tank at agro. I have done pickup groups with plenty of guardians who can clear these zones w/o agro issues by using the tools they have with common sense such as moderate. And your opinion that only raid geared tanks like trumak can clear heroic content is flat out fucking rediculous.

I never said only raid-geared tanks like Trumak can clear heroic content.

I said the opinions guardians with amazing gear who do not consider what it's like for lesser-geared guardians should be ignored. Whether Trumak does that or not, I don't know nor care; I'm just using him as an example of a top-geared guardian.

People come on here and say nothing is wrong with guardian aggro, but then you look at their gear, and they'll have trak shield, avatar charms, etc. Of course they don't have trouble holding aggro off the vast majority of people they'll be grouped with in a PUG, even if the hate/dehate the group has isn't too good. But, if you watch an 80 guardian with 140-170 AAs, only like 60 melee crit and 35 DA, they can't hold aggro to save their life. Of course, their aggro shouldn't be as good or even all that close to the aggro of a top-geared guardian, but when guardians like that can't hold aggro in 80% of the groups they get into, that needs to be fixed.

Guardians are pretty much on the same level as brawlers for PUGs -- maybe only slightly above them. Maybe not mine, and maybe quite a few other guardians, but when I'm on my warlock or assassin, I can assure you I'm looking for a crusader or berserker before I'm looking for a guardian. Why the fuck would I look for a guardian? Guardians can't hold aggro nearly as well, and they aren't even easier to heal in a PUG because crusaders can heal themselves. Hell -- halfway decent crusaders don't even need a healer for the easier zones.

Frogweiser · 07-21-2009, 07:14 PM

Wow and I thought Trumak was cool

Trumak · 07-21-2009, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frogweiser

Wow and I thought Trumak was cool

Apparently I am so good my opinion doesn't matter.

ahdam · 07-21-2009, 11:23 PM

i think what Fungie is trying to say is with gear and player skill being equal, and the only variable being Class, that Guardians are not where they need to be in aggro generation vs the other Tanks. i agree with that.

however i do not expect to have the #1 aggro generation if i am the #1 chioce for Epic survivability. that is unbalanced. I got Np with SKs (even Zerks to an extent ) having better aggro (not massive dps), as long as my survivbility in Groups and Raids is in my favor.

As it stands right now. Guards, SKs, and Zerks are neck-n-neck for survivbility, with Sks trumping all on base Threat/positional generation AND numerical DPS. This is the basic problem that needs to be resolved. Balance Aggro Genertion with Survivability. All DPS is a means to generate aggro for tanks.

Atavax · 07-23-2009, 04:51 AM

to fix guardians, i would remove the the shield damage from tos; to make it as spammable as similar abilities by other tank classes, and i would get rid of shield of vel' arek, and replace it with a fungus spore like proc.

Wulfghar · 07-23-2009, 01:11 PM

How does removing shield damage from tower of stone or putting a power proc on the mythical fix agro issues? I don't care about having shield fodder in my bags, and if I want a power proc, I'll use Fungus Spore. I'm sure most of you have seen the notes on the new expansion where they talk about implementing taunt crit and boosted taunt size. I'm of the mind that I'll believe it when I see it live in game. However, at least that would be a step in the right direction.

ahdam · 07-23-2009, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wulfghar

How does removing shield damage from tower of stone or putting a power proc on the mythical fix agro issues? I don't care about having shield fodder in my bags, and if I want a power proc, I'll use Fungus Spore. I'm sure most of you have seen the notes on the new expansion where they talk about implementing taunt crit and boosted taunt size. I'm of the mind that I'll believe it when I see it live in game. However, at least that would be a step in the right direction.

i agree. all removing sheild damage does is saves me a macro, irrelivent. And i never need power anyways, i have proc items if i need them. I want Guard Core Function fixes. Bump in either Survivability or Aggro PLUS fix my mythical.

Atavax · 07-23-2009, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wulfghar

How does removing shield damage from tower of stone or putting a power proc on the mythical fix agro issues? I don't care about having shield fodder in my bags, and if I want a power proc, I'll use Fungus Spore. I'm sure most of you have seen the notes on the new expansion where they talk about implementing taunt crit and boosted taunt size. I'm of the mind that I'll believe it when I see it live in game. However, at least that would be a step in the right direction.

are not guardians still the most desired mt in raids? is not 6-mans where they are weak? Fungus Spore is a crazy rare drop that most guardians will never get. adding a significant mana regen buff to our mythical would let guardians be less picky about what class make-up they need in groups, while not making them noticeably more powerful in raids; providing a significant buff to the class without making them overpowered. as for tos's damage effect; there is more of a difference then just some macro. from prior to using tos until sometime after the expiration of tos when you switch back to your main shield you're using an inferior shield with inferior stats; this would be another buff that while a buff wont significantly help raiding guardians who seem to need little to no help.

Ixer · 07-23-2009, 05:26 PM

I would much rather see a passive hate gain ability on the mythical much like the other classes out there. Not sure what style, perhaps based on the amount of incoming damage, or stone skinned damage or something along those lines. Or maybe a % of our increased threat from passive/taunts added onto our overall hate increase.

Not saying this is right. Just a thought.