Guardian Guide - Page 3

Grind · 08-08-2007, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pagansaint

Touchy much?

That much parry should be netting you a good bit more avoidance than what you are saying it is parsing you at, adornment modifiers or no, I do not doubt you at all on what you are getting, but it would lend me to believe that parry is more heavily contested somehow, or there is another equation being put into the mix somewhere increasing how many misses the mobs have against you.

That is going off of the numbers you had listed.

lol, sorry. Was in a crabby mood when i got home.

Thats why i said before i was very disappointed in my parry values thru parsing. Its also why i'm skeptical that people say its uncontested. Cause my block value actually parses uncontested. Everything else doesnt.

LFG · 08-08-2007, 10:46 PM

Very nice guide, thank you for posting it.

kascall · 08-09-2007, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pagansaint

Most guardians prefer to get hit more to trigger Inflaming Defense more, better aggro control that way. Not to mention that the additional crit percentage will increase your DPS by varying degrees depending upon what weapon you are using and your crit chance from other items and AAs.

Grind, I believe the values you are getting, parsed out values versus tooltip values, for parry and base avoidance are because your base avoidance is so much higher that when it goes through the contested checks it parses out better.

The 4-8% of your avoidance that is parry could probably be coming almost entirely from those adornments, your non adornment parry being heavily hit by the contested check and I also believe there are a good many of x4 mob attacks that ignore parry, but not entirely sure on that though.

Not sure i would want to get hit more to be honest...trading a 450ish hate proc at 50% for another 2-3k dmg? id rather rely on transfers and my own abilities other then inflaming defense to be honest...on trash sure its nice since most trash cant do much dmg. But when it comes to named, specially orange cons? most new 70 guards wont stand up to the abuse, this is a guide for beginner 70 guards, not tanks in full fabled class set or avatar gear. If i had grind's or some ones gear that is geared like him, sure hit me so i can laugh, but without 11k hps and all that crap, i think i would rely on avoiding and using that time to do more dmg and taunts for agro and pray my transfers do their job instead. Dead tanks dont hold agro

pagansaint · 08-09-2007, 10:11 PM

Without offensive stance against those orange cons you are lowering your hit rate significantly in the beginning of a fight, thus lowering your DPS and aggro control. getting hit less again lowers your aggro control, but like you said, and I meant, that is a playstyle choice.

And especially for the beginner/less equipped guardians, the hit rate and aggro loss problems they encounter at the beginning of pulls can be accounted to not hitting the mob. This is due to slow or resisted defense/parry/agi debuffs.

As it is, the only real difference between a fully EoF fabled out and an EoF/Top KoS legendary and/or KoS fabled tank is Hitpoints and proc's/effects on their armor/jewelry. Mitigation difference is completely negligible when grouped.

The hitpoints difference will only be ~1-1.5k at most, which while being a significant number against spikes, isn't as large of a concern for guardians on pulls due to ToS, atleast compared to berserkers or shadowknights.

The proc's effects on gear is the largest difference, stoneskin triggers, fabled/legendary adornments, +skill modifiers, crit chance, damage proc's, ward proc's and immunity proc's.

The largest difference between a new MT and an established MT going through the same instance will be primarily knowledge of the zone's encounters and how damage is dealt, and the healers available.

I've been dealing with these last two a bit because I am moving my guard from an OT role where I am most comfortable/experianced to doing alot of MTing when playing him.

I choose to hit more at the beginning of the fight, with tower shield out for ToS/higher block in offensive stance. You rely upon yourself for most of your survivability and others for transfers for your aggro opposed to me relying upon my healers and my skills for my survivability while being more self reliant for aggro.

The best advice I can offer for new/raid beginner guardians is to find what you like best that accomplishes your job of being a punching bag and staying as that target.

Grind · 08-09-2007, 10:27 PM

Instead of using offensive stance get a warden. Should hit skill caps fine then.

Personally, i think inflaming defense is mostly a fluff buff. Sure it helps, but its not what i'm building my character around to help me hold agro. On trash, agro is a problem. On encounters that matter, aka named, survivibility is more important, and so going towards avoidance is a better situation.

For beginning tanks/raid guilds, surviving is the most important objective. To learn encounters you need to survive, dps can scale their shit back, and tune it up to find that happy balance. The main lesson of EoF raiding is stability/suvrivablity, dps burning stuff down works on some encounters, but typically your looking for surviving and wearing the mob down. Dps burning works best for established guilds, then you can gear/spec towards holding agro more than surviving, but by then you'll have some gear to support that.

ps. If dps is burning immediately on pull of named encounters (making agro a major concern), they probably deserve to die/wipe the raid.

pagansaint · 08-09-2007, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grind

ps. If dps is burning immediately on pull of named encounters (making agro a major concern), they probably deserve to die/wipe the raid.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, but as the tank, we still take the blame.

As for just using the warden's buff to compensate, that still won't cap/over cap you if in defensive without taking the Wisdom End Line to remove the offensive skills penalty without alot of +skill gear. EDIT: Half the time I do not run with a warden in the MT group, preferring a Coercer except for a few encounters.

Concerning inflaming defense, it proc's at a 70% chance with a Dirge and Templar, far and away one of the top, non-damage, aggro producers.

I notice enjoying a much more solid hold on aggro against much higher DPS when I am getting hit by the mob, than when I am not.

Grind · 08-10-2007, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pagansaint

I agree with this wholeheartedly, but as the tank, we still take the blame.
- Not here, if someone peels in the first 5-10s of combat while positioning is being established, they'll get chewed out before i will.

As for just using the warden's buff to compensate, that still won't cap/over cap you if in defensive without taking the Wisdom End Line to remove the offensive skills penalty without alot of +skill gear. EDIT: Half the time I do not run with a warden in the MT group, preferring a Coercer except for a few encounters.
- Warden buff adds 65 to melee skills, whereas our offensive stance adds 42. Also in almost all cases the MT group will have a dirge, so there's also another 20 something from their buff. That should make you hit and go above cap while in defensive.

Concerning inflaming defense, it proc's at a 70% chance with a Dirge and Templar, far and away one of the top, non-damage, aggro producers.

I notice enjoying a much more solid hold on aggro against much higher DPS when I am getting hit by the mob, than when I am not.

I wont argue that inflaming defense is good, and helps. I just dont think I would suggest and imply that the best way for a new raid MT to gear themselves is with the intention of getting hit. I'd say any new guardian needs to make themselve as nearly invincible as possible, then peel back the layers of awesome to find a happy balance of survivibility and agro control. That will help the raid guild succeed and progress thru the expansion faster than being able to kill the trash a bit quicker.

kascall · 08-10-2007, 02:29 AM

my point exactly Grind

pagansaint · 08-13-2007, 01:26 AM

Blah, I never meant for a brand new guardian to gear themselves specifically to get hit, I was just laying it out as a tactic as part of what I was saying before.

What I was originally saying was that 2% melee crit, due to rarity of melee crit items and the sizable DPS/Aggro boost it gains, is a better choice than +defense items.

The Lucanic Gladius, barely covered if only for its delay and damage range, is probably one of the very best tanking weapons available to even someone who has been raiding regularly for a few months as a guardian despite its damage rating.

The 5% block chance is ridiculously good, especially when used in conjunction with the block, riposte and parry adornments. Makes a significant increase to your avoidance, much more so than any single or even pair of items' +defense modifiers.

Davngr · 08-14-2007, 02:00 AM

other than hitting ToS at the right times and using your mitt buffs when they refresh, a tanks job is to control the mob. i have ben playing my guard for 2 years, also have healers and my main is a top dps necro. if you die it's nothing you have done wrong it's your healers they suck/slaked. if you miss target or loose agro on the regualr basis you suck as a tank and should play another class. having said that i dissagree with new raid tanks making themself invensible at the cost of loosing agro control. i can remeber when when fabled tanks where getting one shoted in HoF because healers where too retarted to cure truama.

Ps. if you tank your guard in offensive you should just betray to zerker.