EQ2 Flames Consolidated Developer Information List - Page 118

Kahna · 03-16-2008, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyque

Rothgar - "You won't find the grass is greener on the other side anywhere else."

I stopped playing mid January with only a couple login social visits this month. As far as I'm concerned the grass IS greener on the other side. Having played and been in great casual guilds as well as several hardcore and decent raiding guilds since EQ2 launched I can definitely say that this game has nose dived in quality. I used to be excited and glued to the game, but later I found myself dreading logging in to even just raid for a few hours.

I probably stayed as long as I did because of the friends I'd made over the years and the fact that I switched my class from overly disgruntled Templar to dps machine whore Conjuror at the start of EoF and enjoyed the new play style for awhile.

EQ2 is no longer fun and my real life is far more enjoyable now because I have more time and energy to devote to it without having to play the pile of crap this game is fast becoming, at least so far as to the things that matter to your veteran / hardcore players who've toughed it out for years.

Yggdrasil · 03-16-2008, 08:53 PM

I've tried to read through this thread and made it through the first 60 or so pages before I felt like I wanted to chime in on some things. As someone who was a former member of NPU from the beginning of DoF until early KoS, having been friends with them before and still in contact with a few now, as well as someone who has moved onto other guilds on another server, I think I can maybe add some perspective on this without being too biased.

When I was in NPU and KoS beta was live, we were all excited when Nade managed to get the rest of the guild copied over. We were happy to see new content early, just like a child shaking their presents on Christmas eve. We tried to take everything in not to have some kind of unfair advantage, but after seeing the same content for so many months, it was nice to see something new.

Of course, some of this content involved raiding, and being part of a raiding guild, we were interested in that just as much as the fluff elements. Moonspark and I were the most vocal about not wanting to hear the strats that the devs outright TOLD us without asking. The devs didn't care if we knew how to beat it; we were simply there for testing. They would ask if this AE hit too hard or if this part of the script was bugged. Despite our opposition, we were still excited to see new content and enjoyed it accordingly.

Here is where things get a little mixed up. Some people think that NPU was the only guild to have those kinds of opportunities, but it simply isn't that way. I remember Ishbu being in the raid with us for several of the beta raids. In subsequent betas in different guilds, I saw more of the same - someone from a guild made it into beta, they spoke with a dev, got their guild copied over, and ran around to see the new sights. I have ALWAYS raided in beta with mixed guilds. Most recently in the RoK beta, my new/current guild actually had a couple of people from "rival guilds" from our server in with us to see new content. I have rarely ever been a part of a beta raid that I can recall that didn't have someone from another guild there. Every bit of "insider info" was common knowledge to everyone there. Those random people could have taken that info to their respective guilds and beaten things just as easily. Sometimes, those guilds beat NPU and sometimes NPU beat those guilds.

Now, I know some drama from different top guilds and absolutely nothing about others. I am not here to play the "Your guild sucks because you did more than that guild unfairly." I would rather like to point out that the playing field was simply more level than this thread is depicting. Furthermore, since the strats were known by more than just NPU or whichever guild I was in at a given time, and the entire debate here is over insider knowledge, what difference would a rollback make? Everyone would still know how to beat the encounter, so what difference would it really make to have a slight rollback? Also, if simply knowing a strat is enough to do it, why haven't I seen more guilds killing Trakanon? I've been a part of guilds who KNEW every bit of an encounter and simply couldn't consistently pull things together enough to actually clear encounters for a long time. Like them or not, believe in what they do or not, you have to give credit to NPU for being good at the game.

Unfortunately, there is no perfect answer here. People like myself and many more of you have bitched and complained about broken content since day one (I was even in the original beta and can remember broken quests in Sunken City

). The way to counter that is to have people testing the game extensively. Since SOE is not about to pay 100 more employees to test the game that thoroughly, paying subscribers end up testing the content instead. That gives some people a little bit of advanced knowledge. So, would you rather have broken content or get an item 3 days later off of a working encounter? I really feel like some people will complain either way and nothing will appease them.

On a final note, there are some people like myself and many others who do things to be team players that they may not like or necessarily want as individuals. While some people can toot their own horns about walking out at the first sign of a guild doing something that they don't like, that doesn't necessarily make them good team players. Part of being a team is sometimes doing the things that you don't like as an individual for the support and progression of the whole. While some can be commended for sticking to higher ethics and shouldn't be faulted for it, I think it's wrong to fault someone for sacrificing the things that they want for the good of the whole.

Fizbiz · 03-16-2008, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yggdrasil

I've tried to read through this thread and made it through the first 60 or so pages before I felt like I wanted to chime in on some things. As someone who was a former member of NPU from the beginning of DoF until early KoS, having been friends with them before and still in contact with a few now, as well as someone who has moved onto other guilds on another server, I think I can maybe add some perspective on this without being too biased.

When I was in NPU and KoS beta was live, we were all excited when Nade managed to get the rest of the guild copied over. We were happy to see new content early, just like a child shaking their presents on Christmas eve. We tried to take everything in not to have some kind of unfair advantage, but after seeing the same content for so many months, it was nice to see something new.

Of course, some of this content involved raiding, and being part of a raiding guild, we were interested in that just as much as the fluff elements. Moonspark and I were the most vocal about not wanting to hear the strats that the devs outright TOLD us without asking. The devs didn't care if we knew how to beat it; we were simply there for testing. They would ask if this AE hit too hard or if this part of the script was bugged. Despite our opposition, we were still excited to see new content and enjoyed it accordingly.

Here is where things get a little mixed up. Some people think that NPU was the only guild to have those kinds of opportunities, but it simply isn't that way. I remember Ishbu being in the raid with us for several of the beta raids. In subsequent betas in different guilds, I saw more of the same - someone from a guild made it into beta, they spoke with a dev, got their guild copied over, and ran around to see the new sights. I have ALWAYS raided in beta with mixed guilds. Most recently in the RoK beta, my new/current guild actually had a couple of people from "rival guilds" from our server in with us to see new content. I have rarely ever been a part of a beta raid that I can recall that didn't have someone from another guild there. Every bit of "insider info" was common knowledge to everyone there. Those random people could have taken that info to their respective guilds and beaten things just as easily. Sometimes, those guilds beat NPU and sometimes NPU beat those guilds.

Now, I know some drama from different top guilds and absolutely nothing about others. I am not here to play the "Your guild sucks because you did more than that guild unfairly." I would rather like to point out that the playing field was simply more level than this thread is depicting. Furthermore, since the strats were known by more than just NPU or whichever guild I was in at a given time, and the entire debate here is over insider knowledge, what difference would a rollback make? Everyone would still know how to beat the encounter, so what difference would it really make to have a slight rollback? Also, if simply knowing a strat is enough to do it, why haven't I seen more guilds killing Trakanon? I've been a part of guilds who KNEW every bit of an encounter and simply couldn't consistently pull things together enough to actually clear encounters for a long time. Like them or not, believe in what they do or not, you have to give credit to NPU for being good at the game.

Unfortunately, there is no perfect answer here. People like myself and many more of you have bitched and complained about broken content since day one (I was even in the original beta and can remember broken quests in Sunken City

). The way to counter that is to have people testing the game extensively. Since SOE is not about to pay 100 more employees to test the game that thoroughly, paying subscribers end up testing the content instead. That gives some people a little bit of advanced knowledge. So, would you rather have broken content or get an item 3 days later off of a working encounter? I really feel like some people will complain either way and nothing will appease them.

On a final note, there are some people like myself and many others who do things to be team players that they may not like or necessarily want as individuals. While some people can toot their own horns about walking out at the first sign of a guild doing something that they don't like, that doesn't necessarily make them good team players. Part of being a team is sometimes doing the things that you don't like as an individual for the support and progression of the whole. While some can be commended for sticking to higher ethics and shouldn't be faulted for it, I think it's wrong to fault someone for sacrificing the things that they want for the good of the whole.

Well written reply.

However the main point is NPU is a whore when it comes to claiming all the World Wide 1sts on these raid kills. Thats why you are getting called out on this shit.

NPU and ANY guild who was in beta and testing, being given all the strats should NOT get the ability to get World Wide 1st on mobs.

Thats unfair and makes the whole ends game scenario a fucking joke. This is the real issue and your saying how wonderful you are doesnt avoid this issue sorry.

Thanks for testing, but the playing field is a joke if you think NPU deserves all the WW1sts credit they have recieved.

Yggdrasil · 03-16-2008, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fizbiz

Thanks for testing, but the playing field is a joke if you think NPU deserves all the WW1sts credit they have
recieved.

I think that you have missed a crucial point of mine: NPU has NEVER been the only guild to test content. Whether it was one member or an entire guild, I would bet with complete confidence that every major raiding guild has had someone raid something in beta. Between devs handing out information so that you can specifically test one part of a script, threads on sites like EQ2Flames, WW channels, etc., the wealth of information is abundant on raid encounters. Many people in softcore guilds on my current server know most everything about encounters that they've never seen since they haven't made it to that stage of the progression, yet have read/heard about.

Do you think that every person who discovers a quest reward because they did the quests in beta should be blocked? What if someone tested a raid mob in beta, but they didn't kill it until the game was live (I know for a fact that this has happened)? I think that people should take a step back and think rationally about what they expect out of this instead of everyone being sore that their toon's name isn't branded on every single item as the WW discoverer.

Bigguss · 03-16-2008, 09:20 PM

tbh I don't care what blubies do.

LFG · 03-16-2008, 09:42 PM

I'm not sure if any of you are following the opposing thread on the official forums, but I just posted this response there:

Quote:

Redhenna wrote:

By the way LFG, can you answer a few questions for me If your concern is that your community has dev input, why did you, instead of trying to see if there was a way to repair things, instead act to create a further division?
2: Do you think, based on your actions, think that devs are more or less likely to read your boards, and post there?
3: Based on the outing of dev characters on your board, do you think the devs will be more or less trusting of players in their discussions with them, and how do you think this will impact player/dev communication?
You speak nicely about the desire for communication, but your actions speak of something completely different.

I'd be happy to answer your questions, and I appreciate that you've asked them. But rather than be pigeonholed, I'll provide the answers I feel are most appropriate.

1. There was no point. I knew it, and they knew it.

I sent a very polite PM to Gnobrin on this board in the recent past as an overture, introducing myself and telling him I hoped we could enjoy successful relations between our two sites, and telling him that I would always support and encourage my users to follow the rules of his forum. I never received any response to that PM, which I hadn't quite decided was a slap in the face, an indication that he wasn't allowed to talk to me without permission from Grimwell first, or what. So there was no point in attempting to strike up any further dialogue with him, he lacks the power to do anything other than admin this board.

I'd sent several emails to Grimwell in the past, but admit that I slowed my communications to him after SOE devs began telling me and Niber (my partner on EQ2Flames), that Grimwell and Brenlo were strongly lobbying them to stop posting on my site and post on the official forums instead. I believe I reasonably interpreted that as aggressive action by them, and was opposite of the spirit they conveyed toward me and my users at the most recent Las Vegas Fanfaire, for normalized and improved relations between our two sites.

And of the emails I did send to Grimwell, he stopped answering most of them. One email of mine he did answer recently was when I reminded him of an email he'd been copied on by Scott Hartsman, before he left EQ2, which promised me the exclusive review of the new Shard of Hate raid zone before it was released. In that email to Grimwell, I promised that my review would be positive, polished, and professional, and that he or anyone else from SOE would be more than welcome to review it before I published it. Grimwell told me he was out of the loop on that sort of thing now, and referred me to a contact in PR. I emailed the contact, copying Grimwell, and never heard anything back.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - in my view, Grimwell is a yes-man to Brenlo. But I admit he has done a fine job implementing Brenlo's policies on this board.

So after receiving the email from Grimwell that lead to this drama, it would have been an exercise in futility for me to attempt to see if there was any way to "repair things." The email he sent me was obviously sent with the knowledge, approval, and/or direction from Brenlo. They made the decision, and I would be pissing in the wind by asking them to reverse it.

Also, that email and decision came one day after an incident on my site where a player posted Aeralik's in game character and guild names, which basically outted who he was as a player. I'm not a technical person, what I failed to realize is that when I previously gave Aeralik global mod rights to edit his own posts, I was actually giving him the global ability to edit or delete any post on my site.

After the user posted Aeralik's character name and guild, Aeralik saw that post and deleted it. I was pretty shocked about that, because I wasn't even aware he had the ability to do that. So after he did that, Aeralik sent me a PM expressing outrage about what the user had posted, and said he deleted the post. Shortly thereafter, I posted that I was the one who deleted it, in a good faith attempt to keep the situation from exploding with my users, who were already making outraged posts about what had been deleted.

What Aeralik refused to accept was that we don't delete posts on my site unless they are in violation of a specific Site Rule. This has always been our practice, and one of the reasons for our popularity - you can't take things back. But there was no rule to cover what happened or to prevent a user from posting his character information in the future. So based on my site policy, I put up a user vote to determine whether our Site Rules should be amended to prevent players from "outting" devs who play EQ2 by posting their player information. Aeralik hadn't been named in that poll or anywhere in that thread. But that's when he got angry, and accused me of doing what I did to embarass him for the purpose of increased advertising revenue. And then I got angry at him in return - he'd created the problem by disclosing his identity to other players, and I was sincerely just trying to help him out. He refused to believe I'd acted in good faith, and said I should have done all this privately, and that he would never be using my site again. Aeralik then complained at SOE about this situation, and the very next day my fan site and Community Influencer status was revoked.

In my opinion, this situation gave them the excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway. Based on my chilled relations with Community Relations here following the Fanfaire, there was no point in pretending otherwise.

2: Do you think, based on your actions, think that devs are more or less likely to read your boards, and post there?

Less likely, of course. But dev posts had dropped off to about less than one per week anyway, based on the lobbying of Grimwell and Brenlo for them not to post there, so there really won't be much difference before vs. now.

3: Based on the outing of dev characters on your board, do you think the devs will be more or less trusting of players in their discussions with them, and how do you think this will impact player/dev communication?

Hopefully in the future, devs won't disclose their player information and other things such as complete mob strats, walkthroughs, and spawn time lists to other players. If anything I've done is responsible for that, I accept responsibility for helping to improve fairness and ethics in EQ2, and also hope the lessons learned from this train wreck will help other devs avoid this type of drama in the future.

Fizbiz · 03-16-2008, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yggdrasil

I think that you have missed a crucial point of mine: NPU has NEVER been the only guild to test content. Whether it was one member or an entire guild, I would bet with complete confidence that every major raiding guild has had someone raid something in beta. Between devs handing out information so that you can specifically test one part of a script, threads on sites like EQ2Flames, WW channels, etc., the wealth of information is abundant on raid encounters. Many people in softcore guilds on my current server know most everything about encounters that they've never seen since they haven't made it to that stage of the progression, yet have read/heard about.

Do you think that every person who discovers a quest reward because they did the quests in beta should be blocked? What if someone tested a raid mob in beta, but they didn't kill it until the game was live (I know for a fact that this has happened)? I think that people should take a step back and think rationally about what they expect out of this instead of everyone being sore that their toon's name isn't branded on every single item as the WW discoverer.

Your missing the point

Being handed the strats for the raid mobs creates an uneven playing field.

You saying others do it to means jack-shit. Its still a load of shit that anyone in beta who is handed the strats for end game raid mobs goes to the live server and kills the mob for WW1st.

Guilds who test in beta on end game raid mobs should simply be flagged as uneligible to recieve the WW1st from the mobs they tested and were given all the strats on.

Very simple logic, and 99% of raiders would agree with this view. In fact thats the whole reason for this backlash.

LFG · 03-16-2008, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yggdrasil

Of course, some of this content involved raiding, and being part of a raiding guild, we were interested in that just as much as the fluff elements. Moonspark and I were the most vocal about not wanting to hear the strats that the devs outright TOLD us without asking. The devs didn't care if we knew how to beat it; we were simply there for testing. They would ask if this AE hit too hard or if this part of the script was bugged. Despite our opposition, we were still excited to see new content and enjoyed it accordingly.

I really appreciate your honesty in posting this.

This has long been my belief, and what others have told me about Roger especially. He disclosed all the strats up front to make his job easier and take less time. He didn't care about trying to spread around the guild beta opportunity more than he did, because he had consistent and excellent results in using NPU for beta testing.

Deson · 03-16-2008, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LFG

I'm not sure if any of you are following the opposing thread on the official forums, but I just posted this response there:

Holy...

I have to say I'm fairly impressed things lasted as long as they did given all that. Covering up the post deleting was above and beyond the call of duty.So Brenlo's goal with the lobby was trying to get his traffic back even then or...?

Emanji · 03-16-2008, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yggdrasil

I've tried to read through this thread and made it through the first 60 or so pages before I felt like I wanted to chime in on some things. As someone who was a former member of NPU from the beginning of DoF until early KoS, having been friends with them before and still in contact with a few now, as well as someone who has moved onto other guilds on another server, I think I can maybe add some perspective on this without being too biased.

When I was in NPU and KoS beta was live, we were all excited when Nade managed to get the rest of the guild copied over. We were happy to see new content early, just like a child shaking their presents on Christmas eve. We tried to take everything in not to have some kind of unfair advantage, but after seeing the same content for so many months, it was nice to see something new.

Of course, some of this content involved raiding, and being part of a raiding guild, we were interested in that just as much as the fluff elements. Moonspark and I were the most vocal about not wanting to hear the strats that the devs outright TOLD us without asking. The devs didn't care if we knew how to beat it; we were simply there for testing. They would ask if this AE hit too hard or if this part of the script was bugged. Despite our opposition, we were still excited to see new content and enjoyed it accordingly.

Here is where things get a little mixed up. Some people think that NPU was the only guild to have those kinds of opportunities, but it simply isn't that way. I remember Ishbu being in the raid with us for several of the beta raids. In subsequent betas in different guilds, I saw more of the same - someone from a guild made it into beta, they spoke with a dev, got their guild copied over, and ran around to see the new sights. I have ALWAYS raided in beta with mixed guilds. Most recently in the RoK beta, my new/current guild actually had a couple of people from "rival guilds" from our server in with us to see new content. I have rarely ever been a part of a beta raid that I can recall that didn't have someone from another guild there. Every bit of "insider info" was common knowledge to everyone there. Those random people could have taken that info to their respective guilds and beaten things just as easily. Sometimes, those guilds beat NPU and sometimes NPU beat those guilds.

Now, I know some drama from different top guilds and absolutely nothing about others. I am not here to play the "Your guild sucks because you did more than that guild unfairly." I would rather like to point out that the playing field was simply more level than this thread is depicting. Furthermore, since the strats were known by more than just NPU or whichever guild I was in at a given time, and the entire debate here is over insider knowledge, what difference would a rollback make? Everyone would still know how to beat the encounter, so what difference would it really make to have a slight rollback? Also, if simply knowing a strat is enough to do it, why haven't I seen more guilds killing Trakanon? I've been a part of guilds who KNEW every bit of an encounter and simply couldn't consistently pull things together enough to actually clear encounters for a long time. Like them or not, believe in what they do or not, you have to give credit to NPU for being good at the game.

Unfortunately, there is no perfect answer here. People like myself and many more of you have bitched and complained about broken content since day one (I was even in the original beta and can remember broken quests in Sunken City

). The way to counter that is to have people testing the game extensively. Since SOE is not about to pay 100 more employees to test the game that thoroughly, paying subscribers end up testing the content instead. That gives some people a little bit of advanced knowledge. So, would you rather have broken content or get an item 3 days later off of a working encounter? I really feel like some people will complain either way and nothing will appease them.

On a final note, there are some people like myself and many others who do things to be team players that they may not like or necessarily want as individuals. While some people can toot their own horns about walking out at the first sign of a guild doing something that they don't like, that doesn't necessarily make them good team players. Part of being a team is sometimes doing the things that you don't like as an individual for the support and progression of the whole. While some can be commended for sticking to higher ethics and shouldn't be faulted for it, I think it's wrong to fault someone for sacrificing the things that they want for the good of the whole.

After reading all of that, I came to the conclusion that ....ELFIN > YGGY :D

But yeah, I've said it before in this monster long thread that there are people in the guild who are openly opposing us getting strat from Devs in beta. Specifically MO where we were told of the adds immunity. And just like you said, personally I don't really care much about it since there are other guilds testing the same content and I'm sure they were given the same strats.

As for the people who thinks that BETA guilds shouldn't get WWFIRST, I LOL @ your face.