Zam's Item database. - Page 2

Rhaz · 12-14-2007, 09:28 PM

FUCKING CHEATERS FUCK

Johnathon · 12-15-2007, 11:41 AM

Anyone from ZAM care to comment? or am i just being paranoid?

mythical · 12-15-2007, 12:46 PM

Database mining isnt uncommon.

Welcome to the 21st century.

Shandreya · 12-16-2007, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mythical

Database mining isnt uncommon.

No, but it is technically against the EULA, since you almost always have to attach to the process in order to mine your data. A "passive" hack, if you will. Some game developers do explicitly allow data mining as an exception to their "no-third-party-programs" clauses, I'm not sure if EQ2 did that, but it's pretty obvious that they are data mining.

Makes me wonder what took so long, though - VG had Curse-gaming mining data for them just a few weeks out of Beta. And now that one has started, everyone will follow suit, because there's no real way to compete with a database that data mines except by doing a bit of mining yourself - again using VG as an example, I remember other "content providers" (10 ton hammer, ZAM) whining and crying about Curse's use of data mining because they had to enter everything by hand and thus couldn't compete. Considering who the OP is (the guy in charge of eq2llinks?), I can see why this would be a bit inconvenient for him as it more or less renders his application obsolete unless he follows suit and has someone (or himself) write a data mining app to fill his own database.

LFG · 12-16-2007, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eleyn

No, but it is technically against the EULA, since you almost always have to attach to the process in order to mine your data. A "passive" hack, if you will. Some game developers do explicitly allow data mining as an exception to their "no-third-party-programs" clauses, I'm not sure if EQ2 did that, but it's pretty obvious that they are data mining.

Makes me wonder what took so long, though - VG had Curse-gaming mining data for them just a few weeks out of Beta. And now that one has started, everyone will follow suit, because there's no real way to compete with a database that data mines except by doing a bit of mining yourself - again using VG as an example, I remember other "content providers" (10 ton hammer, ZAM) whining and crying about Curse's use of data mining because they had to enter everything by hand and thus couldn't compete. Considering who the OP is (the guy in charge of eq2llinks?), I can see why this would be a bit inconvenient for him as it more or less renders his application obsolete unless he follows suit and has someone (or himself) write a data mining app to fill his own database.

Data mining is in violation of the EQ2 Eula. Johnathan has been entering his stuff manually based on item drops in game for what, two years now?

I can understand how he feels screwed.

I don't mean to start a war with anyone. I just want to know if the rules changed, if someone from SOE granted an exception in this case, what. Clearly the "little guy" like Johnathan deserves the same rights as larger fansites.

There is no longer any competition in ROK for which fansite or utility like Johnathan's will get the most player use because it has the most up to date item database. The utility Johnathan has spent his entire EQ2 career developing is now grossly outdated and obsolete (except to get links in game vs using a browser to get them, but big deal, since the browser works in game now also) compared to Zam's on-line database. That isn't fair, unless the rules have changed at SOE and data mining is now permitted.

Let's all just admit what's happened here and get on with life please. If someone made a mistake, so be it, I'm not trying to crucify anyone. I am just a bit curious on how this could have been done without violating the EULA. I don't think it could have.

Savanja · 12-16-2007, 12:55 PM

Permitted data mining.

I don't know if there is a difference or not, but apparently SOME are allowed.

Savanja · 12-16-2007, 01:07 PM

Well it was just explained to me the difference so now I'm insanely curious what has happened here.

LFG · 12-16-2007, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savanja

Permitted data mining.

I don't know if there is a difference or not, but apparently SOME are allowed.

No, EQ2 compendium was granted a special license by SOE to use information they've collected on their own with an interface they've developed that allows their product to be used ingame with EQ2:

Quote:

How does it work? Is this legal?
EQ2-Compendium works by recompiling the log files from every user and combines them into one massive searchable database. The only way you can get better data than this method is if SOE published mob drop rates/loot tables themselves.

EQ2-Compendium is 100% legal because it only takes information from your log files and transmits them to our servers. Once the data is transmitted the link between user and data is severed, and can never be traced back to the user. So if you really like killing rats in the sewers at 70...no one can laugh at you because of the data you transmit.

So EQ2 Compendium is obtaining it's information from USER LOG FILES, not by invasive data mining. Here's what EQ2 Compendium says about how ZAM collects it's information:

Quote:

Why would we use your service when there's more established places?
The sites like Allakhazam(c/tm) and others are truly wonderful places, they have a wonderful base of people and are very handy! The information we provide to a great level of certainty they can only venture to guess at. The data collection model used by these sites are "user posting" where Player A saw a sword drop off a Moat rat...so he goes and posts that on the site.

Obviously, that cannot be true. ZAM has invisible items in it's database that could not possibly have been player submitted, unless it was submitted by players using an invasive tool not permitted by the EULA.

The fact that ZAM entered 60k items within 48 hours precludes any possibility that this data was entered by players.

Coyote · 12-17-2007, 10:44 AM

Interesting.

Do a search on the word "Test" and you'll come up with a LOT of items that are obviously just that. Testing/tool items, items not intended for gameplay..etc.

I'd suspect some kinda data dump, upstream hack - something of the like, but it doesn't seem that this got much notice, so it is prolly a non-issue.

If anything they probably just polluted the fuck out of thier database. Still, it kinda hurts the mom and pop sites that have to do this manually eh?

Coyote · 12-17-2007, 10:47 AM

And please note - this is observation. Not bashing of Zam because I am TTH or anything of the like. This isn't some personal notice or vendetta, it just seems...well...shadey.

I'm not "calling out" Zam, or anything in the like for reasons of occupational interest. I'm just saying for the sites that have entered their manually, by hand - from playing and work, this just seems in really poor taste.