My Rage About LDL Raid Guild Loot Rules

Melodias · 01-31-2008, 12:58 PM

This issue has come up and has been a small problem about 20 times too many and I could use some thoughs and opinions. The initial problem here is there are too many raid guilds on this server and not enough of a population to fill them all. My guild has a core raid group, but occasionally a key player in a key class for the raid cannot attend for whatever reason and we will invite a guest or two. We are known to run with 2 or 3 guests on raids sometimes. Our raid guild loot rules are simple .....leader assigned, guild main raider gets first shot if it's a clear upgrade. If not a clear upgrade, guests get the next shot. If no clear upgrade for a guest, guild alts are then considered. If no upgrade for anyone at all, then we crush it and the entire raid group rolls on the outcome. Guests are made aware of this if they are new to raiding with us. Those guests who have raided with us before ...is it silly to expect that they remember our rules from the last few times they raided with us?

Some say our loot rules are unfair, that every raid member should get an equal roll on every usable drop because they are working and participating in the raid in the same capacity as everyone else. I can see that point, but what about this ....did that guest put the time and effort into that raid guild group to make it possible for that raid group to clear the higher level zones? Do they think we just jumped into and are clearing T8 raid zones because we just got the notion in our heads one day? It takes time, work, skill, practice and patience to put together, hold together and advance a raid guild. So why is it fair that a guest on our raid who did NOT put the effort in to get us to where we are to have a shot at loot equal to those guild members who DID do all the work?

I've been told that giving guests on our raids equal shot at loot encourages them to come back and then to eventually join. We tried that. All we saw were players taking hard earned drops back to their own guilds and never coming back when we changed back to our current loot rules. It seems to me that if a player wants to raid and wants to wear gear from the raid zones, that player would join a raid guild and earn it the same way the rest of us do instead of going around whining that some raid guilds are mean because they don't share their loot with those outside the guild. Someone tell me how a raid guild is supposed to improve and succeed if they do not focus on gearing up their raid members? Am I wrong and completely way off base here? If so I wish someone would clear it up for me.

I have been told that one wants to raid, but loves their RP guild and doesn't want to make the switch to the raid guild. I understand that. I have seen people handle that with alts. One alt raids and the other RPs and that player has the best of both worlds.

I spent some time raiding with another guild while mine was not doing the T7 zones anymore to work on the T8. On those raids, there were a few bard specific fabled armor pieces that I could have used for an upgrade that dropped. I was not offered a chance for them nor did I ask for one. They had a bard in guild who needed those pieces and I was a guest. It seems though, when some from that guild raid with us they expect an equal shot at the loot. Let's see here ...I did not get a loot option when I raided with them, we raid at a higher level because we worked up to it ....but yet my guild is one who is cruel and unfair? Can someone explain this to me?

I love my guild and each and every person who is a member. We have no internal disagreements over loot and have voted on our loot rules as an entire guild. We are united and strong because we think about what is better for the group and not the individual. To succeed in the higher levels of this game, we are forced to work with others to accomplish the goals. Our individual goals are met when the group succeeds.

OKay ...I'm done whining now. Thank you for your patience if you managed to read all of this. Please know that I speak as an individual and NOT as a representative of my guild.

Melodias

Illmarr · 01-31-2008, 02:47 PM

All I can say is that no one has the right to tell your Guild leaders how to run their Guild. You have a way that works for you. You seem to be up front with guests on how the rules work. They can choose to participate or not, no one twists their arm and forces them to go.

I would caution you against expecting people to hold to the same standard you hold yourself to. I'm not saying yours are too high. I'm just saying that everyone has a different view of what's "fair". Trying to hold everyone to your standard will just bring you disappointment.

Adun · 01-31-2008, 03:10 PM

Well, reading your post carefully I'd say you don't actually have a problem, you just have a few folks that want it "their way".

If I were a guest in a guild raid, I would not roll unless invited to (in much the same way, if I were invited to someone's house I would wait to be invited to dinner, rather than assume it was ok to mooch

). On one occasion (I can't remember which group I was with) I was "given" the loot because it was druid specific and all the other druids had that drop already.

Since you brought it up though... I have noticed there's an easily distinguishable line (maybe not so easy sometimes) that can be drawn between players that are serious about raiding and those that are just there for some cool loot. In my experience, the more serious players are the ones who pay attention, patiently follow instructions while strats are experimented with and don't fret about dying or repair costs... or xp debt.

The ones that are there for the loot are usually easy to pick out

There the one's who announce after one failed pull "I'm here for the loot, not the debt! CYA!" and then call home. *shrugs*

Rekip · 01-31-2008, 03:36 PM

Just a short post to this one from me as Melodias has pretty much covered all the bases. I think the incident that brought this to a head was last night in Protectors Realm, when a weapon that was clearly a great upgrade for a Rogue or Predator, went to our guild's SK (also a great upgrade for him) instead of a guest Brigand. Now clearly it would have been a no-brainer that the Brig would recieve this weapon had he been a a guild member, sadly he was not a guild member.

I assign all loot on raids based on a number of criteria and advice from others within the raid. Even though this person was not a guild member he had raided with us in the past and stated that he thought our loot rules were fine with him, and he was just with us for the experience of the T8 zones. Because of this I thought it was not a problem, and yet as soon as we were done he left saying he didn't like our loot rules, leaving me somewhat confused. The real rub here is that I knew it was a much better upgrade for the Brig and even debated giving the weapon to him over my guildie. I am glad I didn't after the way it was left.

The goal of any guild that is raiding is to be the best that they can be in order to deal with the shit SOE throws at us in the raidzones. Our feelings in Order of the Black Mark are that the dkp systems sucks ass (I know it works for some), and random rolls for anyone in attendance may mean that some unlucky people will never get upgrades even if they are critical members of a raid force. We use leader assignment for a very specific reason and purpose .... to gear up OUR raidforce as quickly and efficiently as possible. If our system doesn't work for you don't use it, if you like it and think it works for you then see me or Melodias because we are still looking for one or two more to finish out our force.

Rekip - Guardian/Leader
Order of the Black Mark - Lucan D'Lere

Wormy · 01-31-2008, 03:43 PM

Does anyone do auction raids in EQII? The idea is that, for tradeable items, all items are auctioned off by the raid leader post-raid to those who attended the raid, and the proceeds are then divided up by all who attended. The result is that everyone goes home with something, even if it's only coinage, making those players more able to bid higher on items on the next raid.... it's all about redistribution of the wealth.

Stonestrong · 01-31-2008, 03:46 PM

Pretty sure this is standard. I highly doubt any raiding guild is going to give items that are upgrades for its members to guests. Unless it was a class you just had to have to have and previously made an arrangement. Sounds like someone saw a weapon that made his butthole sweat and got mad when he couldn't get a chance at it. Either way you should do whats best for your guild imo. I wonder if his guild was raiding and you attended how would they have handled it?

Mimn · 01-31-2008, 05:08 PM

Plain out if you are needing to take people that are not part of your raid team on raids to fill in slots to make a full useable raid team yo need to adjust. Those people are there helping you just as much as you are helping them.

I am not saying though they should have the same loot rules but i have seen this system work very well when you have to run with non guild members on a raid. Loot council decides who what classes can roll on said item. Guild members roll 200-300 while guests roll 1-300. Highest roll wins of course.

This is also me looking from the outside in and not sure what is said and what classes you needed. But if you have a MT defiler and coercer as pickups for your raid team IMHO you wouldnt even be raiding without them giving up their time to help you. If its some dps class that can be replaced of do without then either run with under 24 people or that person is there and fully understands that they probably wont see jack as of loot and are they ok with it. Also again i am not sure how many bodies and how often you have to take them if its just one person evey so often or 5 people per raid.

But stick to your guns Order of the Black Mark. If you explain this to the people as they join you guys as a guest and they understand that yoru guild comes first and they will just get what is left. If they dont like it or act like the lil butthurt brig that had a fit then you guys are better off running with 23 people then 24. But also expect a lil grief because that is what people do when pissed and ignore it. If that is the way you are going to roll dont gripe about it when people think you are being unfair. Its your guild and run it how you see fit and if others dont like them you can always do this to them

Melodias · 01-31-2008, 05:30 PM

Thanks for the input. It's good to get different opinions here. I know this is something I cannot or will not fix, but I can at least try to make it better by seeing what others are thinking.

Just to answer some questions ....

Stonestrong, I HAVE raided with this other guild. My experience is in my original post.

Mimm ....if our MT defiler, coercer, templar or any other MT group member is not there, we will just not raid or invite a pickup and do an easier zone. We have ran short before asking any guests many times. The brig and 2nd illy we had on raid with us were people we knew and were comfortable and familiar with ...ones we knew to be highly skilled (go figure).

Avaela · 01-31-2008, 05:40 PM

i ran into a similar problem on guk with a pickup raid in protector's realm, a guild had an x2 of their own members then formed the rest with pickups. they didn't say anything in raid about loot rules so of course when the first mob was killed something i was interested in dropped, i asked in raid a couple times, they ignored me. after the loot was handed out to their guild members i asked again and they said guests don't get loot so i said fuck this and called out. sorry just felt like ranting about that. if a guild only has 1 or 2 groups of their own ppl, guests should have an equal opportunity to get some loot imo.

Adun · 01-31-2008, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melodias

Thanks for the input. It's good to get different opinions here. I know this is something I cannot or will not fix, but I can at least try to make it better by seeing what others are thinking.

I can see Mimm's point of view as well and I'd be willing to say it's completely valid (no questions asked)... except... that said parties were aware of the loot rules and said didn't have an issue until they saw something they wanted.

At some point, players have show a little professional courtesy (I may be asking a lot here) and take the high road. It's just loot... it's not even real