Question on weapons due to DW changes - Page 2

Tsukuwa · 09-27-2007, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinski

Learn to time your auto-attacks and none of what you talk about is ever a problem.

Well if you had read my post you will see I stated that you could wait. But I'm sorry but you wont be nearly as accurate timing CA's as you would be queuing them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanka

What 2.5 weapons have you actually used? Once you get a pair you will understand things better. Twins don't measure up to razor, kama, etc etc etc. With the DW changes they have become better but they still don't stand up to the 2.5'ers.

They are better because they are better weapons not cause they are 2.5s weapons. Try rating two weapons with near the same DR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dants

Your post doesn't account for haste either. A 1 sec delay weapon would only be ideal if you had 0 haste which is never the case, and with a dirge casting CoB, the haste is different at different times thus making it even more impractical to assume you'd never miss an autoattack with specific weapons.

Umm no my calculation are with HASTE. The TC's are effectively become 1.0s weapons with 129 haste (my self buffed haste).

This is basic math people. If between CA's there is a 1 second pause ANY weapon that does not fall on a even second you will either need to wait between CA's or lose auto attacks.

The OP stated he had access to KoS weapons and of all the KoS weapons the TC's are now top of the game. Before GU38 if you didn't pick the AGI line you would lose auto attacks while your CA's pause was in effect. Since that is not the case anymore the MOST you will ever lose would be 0.1s. MAX haste you the TC is 0.9s delay.

Telling someone that they will get more DPS with nothing more then getting a weapon with a longer delay is just wrong and untrue. The only time that is true is when a weapon is so fast you can't get your cast time and recover time low enough to match it. Then yes having a slower cast time weapon would net you more DPS.

Blanka · 09-27-2007, 07:17 PM

You are completely wrong, for example FOB and that 2.5 weap from crab are still better than twins.

Tsukuwa · 09-27-2007, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanka

You are completely wrong, for example FOB and that 2.5 weap from crab are still better than twins.

You don't get it. It's not about me being right or wrong. It's about the math. A weapon that ends on a non even second requires you to delay your CA's in order for you not to miss auto attacks. In doing so you relie on your own internal timings and believe me you will lose time. Thus you will lose out on CA's and cost you DPS.

I'm not debating what weapon from KoS is better then the other. I'm telling you that when it comes to pure weapon delay a weapon with an even timer is better then one without. If you want to say thats wrong thats fine but I'm pretty sure math is on my side on this one.

Blanka · 09-28-2007, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsukuwa

You don't get it. It's not about me being right or wrong. It's about the math. A weapon that ends on a non even second requires you to delay your CA's in order for you not to miss auto attacks. In doing so you relie on your own internal timings and believe me you will lose time. Thus you will lose out on CA's and cost you DPS.

I'm not debating what weapon from KoS is better then the other. I'm telling you that when it comes to pure weapon delay a weapon with an even timer is better then one without. If you want to say thats wrong thats fine but I'm pretty sure math is on my side on this one.

And I am saying for more DPS you want to go with the better weapons which are 2.5 delay.

Ramius613 · 09-28-2007, 01:25 AM

Actually both of you have valid points, I will break down both scenarios.

Twins= 1.6 original delay. 1.6 * 1.33 ~ 2.1 actual delay
Self buffed monk ~ 129 which is ~ 106% haste, for simplicity's sake
say 100%

2.1 * .5 (100% haste) ~1.0 sec delay
Casting & recovery time is 1 sec (.5 sec each)
With Agi line, Agi 2 debuff on mob, and Swift Calm, casting & recovery time drop down to ~ .7-.8 sec

So now with those factors involved it is very easy to pretty much Auto atk, CA, Auto atk, CA, and not really miss out on either.

Now, if you have 2.5 delay weapons, delay* 1.33 ~ 3.3 actual delay
3.3* .5 ~ 1.66 hasted delay.

With that timing, you could Autoatk, CA, CA, Autoatk. This is good if you are soloing, as you are doing the more damage. This will lose out to the TC in a raid scenario, where you can approach the haste cap more easily, because 3.3 * .375(125% haste) = 1.2 sec delay, so you awould have to wait about .4-.5 sec between CAs. Where as with TC 2.1 *.375 = .8 delay, and here you spam your CAs.

Looking at these numbers, both are valid options, because while you would do more damage with the 2.5 delay weapons, they require more skill to properly time your CAs, and with the current lag in zone lately, is almost impossible. The 1.6 delay weapons, while dealing less total damage, allow you to spam your CAs, and not miss too much on your autoatks.

Pinski · 09-28-2007, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramius613

With that timing, you could Autoatk, CA, CA, Autoatk. This is good if you are soloing, as you are doing the more damage. This will lose out to the TC in a raid scenario, where you can approach the haste cap more easily, because 3.3 * .375(125% haste) = 1.2 sec delay, so you awould have to wait about .4-.5 sec between CAs. Where as with TC 2.1 *.375 = .8 delay, and here you spam your CAs.

3.3/2.25(125% haste) = ~1.47

Canuckle · 10-01-2007, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Well if you had read my post you will see I stated that you could wait. But I'm sorry but you wont be nearly as accurate timing CA's as you would be queuing them.

--- Tsukuwa

In actuality if you queue your CAs up continuously you will never auto attack as CAs over-ride auto attack. In queue they are casting as soon as the recovery time of the previous CA is over, thus preventing any auto attack. I encourage you to test before you give advice.

Pinski · 10-01-2007, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canuckle

--- Tsukuwa

In actuality if you queue your CAs up continuously you will never auto attack as CAs over-ride auto attack. In queue they are casting as soon as the recovery time of the previous CA is over, thus preventing any auto attack. I encourage you to test before you give advice.

This is wrong. If you queue your CAs you can still auto-attack in between CAs casting in the recovery time period. In fact, that is the whole point of the recovery period existing, to let you auto-attack.

Exeugi · 10-01-2007, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canuckle

I encourage you to test before you give advice.

I encourage you to do the same.

killu · 10-01-2007, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsukuwa

Why do people believe you get more DPS from longer delay weapons?

The only thing a longer delay weapon will net you is higher crits but even then you really want a weapon with the largest damage spread and long delay.

TC since the changes is one of the highest sets of weapons you can get. If you are still raiding KoS you wont find much better. The reason for this is you don't want to look for a long delay weapon what you want is a weapon that falls on an even second. Because of a 0.5 cast time and a 0.5 recover time if you spam CA's you have a 1 second wait before you can use an auto attack. Lets map it out.

1s delay weapons.
1s auto-attack -> CA cast time 0.5s -> CA recover time 0.5-> (you can now autoattack again) 1s auto-attack-> repeat.

Now a 2.5s delay weapons.
2.5s auto-attack -> CA cast time 0.5s -> CA recover time 0.5-> (you can now autoattack again but your weapon isn't ready) CA cast time 0.5s -> CA recover time 0.5-> (you can now autoattack again but your weapon isn't ready) CA cast time 0.5s -> (right here your weapon becomes availible for autoattack but you must wait 0.5s before you can) CA recover time 0.5-> 2.5s auto-attack -> repeat.

With a weapon that ends off an even second you lose auto attacks or must wait to use another CA. Now if you had a weapon with a 2.0s delay you could get off 2 CA's between each auto attack and not lose a swing.

Unless you have something like the AGI which changes your cast time and recover time you will always do more damage with an even ending weapon.

Before GU38 I used TC and had the AGI. With Ambidexterity and Baton Flurry I was able to drop my cast time and recover time combined to 0.8s. Self hasted the TC's were 0.8s which was a perfect match.

are you retarted or are you just retarted?
obviously you havnt heard of this thing called haste. umm yea see what it does is it changes the actuall delay of your weapons auto attack, the more haste you have the faster your weapon delay will become. therefore a 1sec delay wep doesnt have a true delay of 1sec, same with 2.5sec and so on. now since you supposedly play a monk, you have haste, try to factor that into your genius theory. once you have done so, then try to come back, with some rational explanation on this subject, and tell most other monks in this game, that know how to play their toon, how wrong they all are for choosing the wep setup they have, which makes them dps twice as much as you.