ecoskii

Bet I'm one of the reasons Dagorlad started this post - I keep whinging to him whilst we are raiding about Mystic abilities v Defilers. Enlightened raidleaders recognise that the sum total of mystic v defiler abilities in the MT grp are very finely balanced... the rest just see the HP buffing difference...

The problem is that raidleaders then apply the same thinking to the OT grp... they view a defiler is somewhat more likely to be able to keep the OT up - and keeping the OT alive can be more important/difficult than the MT in EoF encounters - so lets take 2 defilers.... don't need/want 3 shammies in the normal 6/7 healer raid.... welcome to the spectator class Mr Mystic.... or even worse end up healing a dps grp with a necro wanting to cast LB all the time

I now need one of our very nice/good defilers to drop dead so that I can throw away 100% Masters and betray :-(

btw what is the secret to +1k mystic parses?? Fully fabled with 100% melee crits, and melee eof abilities in MT or OT grps i have never got close to this level. Do i need to get a bunch of +dps and +haste gear/adornments?

Dagorlad

As promised heres the discriptions from the past. I don't have the one from Kos as i did a digital download by then.


Again, please show me where it says the Defiler is the offensive and the Mystic the defensive healer:


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Original Everquest II

Shaman:
Shamans call upon the ancient spirits of the land, using protective wards and healing to invigorate their comrades. THey can remove afflictions and reflect vile magic back upon their foes.
Armor: Medium (brigandine)
Weapons: Spear, Flail, Hammer, Mace, Staff, Sling, thrown weapons
Attribute bonus:+2 strength, +3 stamina, +5 wisdom

Mystic:
Mystics seek a symbiotic connection with their ancestors, petitioning them to grant the power to heal the injured, invigorate the weak, and enhance the capabilities of their allies.

Armor: Medium (brigandine)
Weapons: Spear, Flail, Hammer, Mace, Staff, Sling, thrown weapons
Attribute bonus:+2 strength, +3 stamina, +5 wisdom

Defiler:
Defilers enslave the spirits of their ancestors, plundering and corrupting their power to use against enemies. This stolen power can also be used to heal and boost the capabilities of the defiler's allies.

Armor: Medium (brigandine)
Weapons: Spear, Flail, Hammer, Mace, Staff, Sling, thrown weapons
Attribute bonus:+2 strength, +3 stamina, +5 wisdom

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Desert of Flames description

Shaman:
Shamans call upon the ancient spirits of the land, using protective wards to prevent damage and healing to invigorate their comrades. They can remove afflictions from their friends and weaken their foes.

Mystic:
Mystics seek a symbiotic connection with their ancestors, petitioning them to grant the power to heal the injured, invigorate the weak, and enhance the capabilities of their allies through the use of powerful augmentations.

Defiler:
Defilers enslave the spirits of the lands, plundering and corrupting these forces to turn against their enemies. THis Power can be used to heal and boost the capabilities of the Defiler´s allies while debilitating their opponents.

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Echoes of Faydwer description

Mystic
The mystic is a shaman of spiritual preservation and enlightenment.
Mystics are known for their powerfull warding spells that protect allies from harm.
The mystic can enhance the party´s attributes and provide magical protection in combat while inflicting debilitating weakness upon the enemy.

Defiler
The Defiler is a shaman of corruption and spiritual enslavement.
A powerful ally, Defilers are able to mend wounds and remove ailments from the afflicted.
Fearsome in battle, the Defiler employs ancient rituals of dark power to sicken, harm, and reduce the fighting prowess of the enemy.

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Dagorlad

Well ecoskii your not the reason for why i posted, i explained to you many times to stop looking at what others can do and what your class can.

As a mystic in the mt group you can do great. but the problem is when min/max raids its not about where you feel like you fit but where every class fits. and its common sense a Defiler equelly skilled as a mystic the Defiler takes the MT shaman role. if your raid leader leaves you home over a second defiler hes not amongst the better raidleaders.

If you feel you wanna be everytime in the MT group betray to defiler as i feel your a defiler at heart but still play a mystic.

The only thing stopping you from betrayal is loosing some masters. which should never be a valid reason.


secret to mystic dps? Skill, group setup and gear.

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Lepios

I have to agree here, mystics can be equally as effective in an MT setup. I commonly replace our defiler in MT group if the encounter calls for the specific abilities of our class. The shaman classes have been compared many times, mystics are better in certain setups then defilers and vice versa.

The reason why i said "if the encounter calls for the specific abilities" I am referring to the use of prophetic aegis on fights like wuoshi and over fights with large poison or diesease attacks.

When it comes to betraying, its really a question of are you willing to switch, I know for me, i will never betray my mystic over to a defiler even if defilers have some nicer perks then us ( cannibalize). Before you betray if you are iffy about it, roll up a defiler alt and play with it or if you have a friend that has a defiler, try it out. By all means I am not saying to trade accounts ect... but try it out.

Finally when it comes to break 1K dps the main things you need to look at are a good weapon such as:

\aITEM -1200085455 154004311:Vraksakin Claw Club\/a (temple of scale)
\aITEM -1165290484 -2047597553:Greatspear of the Outer Rim\/a (princes)

I personally use the Great spear of the outer rim becasue I do not have a vraksakin claw club.

Another thing is have proper AA's such as rank 7 or 8 in melee crits. If you have you can get chieftains rage but its not necessary to break 1K. Finnally another thing to look at is group setup. I am usally with a dirge in any group i am in. There are also items you can get to increase your haste and dps such as:

\aITEM -583020915 -323952963:Amulet of the Forsworn\/a (dt access)
\aITEM -1163301483 1084951914:pristine imbued acrylia band of strength\/a

If you get a nice two hander and a good group that supports melee dps and YOU DO NOT NEED TO HEAL then you should be able to auto attack and do your CA's and break 1K easily.

Just remember to do your primary job before DPS, so keep your group healed and debuffs on before trying to get your dps up.

Euron Greyjoy

Try reading my original post. I'm not using old out-dated descriptions of the classes; I'm looking at the abilities given to me by Sony. Compare:

Mystic // Defiler

Torpor // Forced Cannibalism (52 AT) Mystics get a recurring HOT and ward, in place of Defilers' DOT and mana tap.
Prophetic Aegis // Crystallize Spirit (57) Mystics get a noxious ward and mit buff, in place of your proc chance on killing a mob.
Umbral Attendant // Dire Invective (59) Mystics get another healing spell (albeit a crappy one) in place of your melee proc buff.
Wrath of the Grey // Ruinous Anthema (59) Mystics get a nuke that does less damage than yours, and yours is also a noxious debuff.
Wrath of the Ancients // Caliginous Corruption (60) Mystics get an encounter nuke, while Defilers get an encounter DOT and debuff (noxious).
Ancient Avatar // Abhorrent Seal (61) Mystics get a buff, where Defilers get a debuff.
Ursine Augur // Woeful Countenance (62) No real comparison to make here; only difference is that Defilers need the HP regen, and that Mystics' version would support my 'melee brigand-type' of mystic.
Eidolon // Malignancy (64) Malignancy (Defiler) debuffs everything, while Eidolon (Mystic) does STA and STR.
Glacial Flames // Fulginous Dominion (65) Glacial Flames is a poor damage DOT, while Fulginous Dominion (Defiler) does much more damage and is, as well, a debuff.
Bolster // Defile (65) We get a temp. stat buff in place of your (for lack of better term) nuke/DOT.
Plague // Putrefy (67) Plague does pitiful damage compared to Putrefy (Defiler counterpart), and Putrefy is also a debuff.
Lamenting Soul// Bane of Protection (68) Mystics get Lamenting Soul, a DPS debuff, which is made up for the fact that Fulginous Dominion debuffs DPS. Defilers get an incredibly powerful reactive-type ward that can be used from any group, as it is, of course, another debuff.
Oberon// Maelstrom (50, 70) Here is the kicker: Mystics get a huge recurring ward, where the Defilers get... a DOT + manaregen spell. Where we are stunned and you are stifled, it allows for you to continue melee DPS'ing, but not heal the tank at all.

Or, try this:

All Mystic Heals // All Defiler Heals All of Mystic heals are, *Gasp*, imagine that, buffs as well. We buff your raw hp for a few seconds while using them. To make up for it, defilers heal for slightly more raw damage, but not by much.

Trust me. I've played both classes, the Defiler for a year, as MT healer, and then the Mystic for three months as MT healer. These confusing issues concerning the two classes do not effect me, as I am on Nagafen. However, I don't think anyone else is more entitled to be able to compare the two classes than I am, especially in a MT group position.

I've never even seen what character creation description you're talking about; I'm only comparing the two classes we see today.

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Grozmok :: Rallos Zek :: Shadowknight :: Wudan
Mazrim :: Guk :: Defiler :: Ne Plus Ultra
Euron :: Nagafen :: Mystic :: The Kraken, Onyx, Vae Victis
Euron :: Unrest :: Coercer :: Equestrian Prep

Euron Greyjoy

I'm not asking for complete remaking of the classes. I'd only like some actual identity for the two classes. This grey area... isn't doing it for me.

If Mystics are meant to be main-tank shamen, then make us buff more raw HP. If not, that's fine; rework our abilities to reflect that fact. I've given many suggestions that I believe could fix the imbalance.

In fact, such huge abilities like Prophetic Aegis, and Oberon, can't be used from outside of the MT group. Then, for the Defilers, they have no such restrictions; in fact, they have pretty much no abilities except for Maelstrom that required them to be in the same group as the person they are healing. Note: this is not including the EoF aa's.

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Grozmok :: Rallos Zek :: Shadowknight :: Wudan
Mazrim :: Guk :: Defiler :: Ne Plus Ultra
Euron :: Nagafen :: Mystic :: The Kraken, Onyx, Vae Victis
Euron :: Unrest :: Coercer :: Equestrian Prep

Tindomerel

"Oberon: Grants a powerful ward to a chosen ally. This ward will slowly regenerate absorption for the duration of the spell. The mystic is stunned as long as the spell is maintained, but the spell can be toggled off early if desired."

I wouldnt want to be stunned as a MT healer to keep a 1510 point ward up.

And for Prophetic Aegis, correct me if I'm wrong here, this is just a nox ward + increase of nox mit which isnt really something that will make or break the mt group.

The reason defilers are most commonly seen in mt groups are because of Tendrils/buff more raw hp/better self reliable power management/I would even like to add spiritual circle here since imo as a shaman wards > heals in the MT group/our debuffs.

Being able to heal more raw hp in the MT group is really insignificant imo since we have other healers that takes care of the actual healing part while we focus on debuffs/wards.

And good debuffs is a major plus to have in the MT group since we can keep these up while others focus on jousting AE/killing adds etc.

Just my point of view on the subject and even though I do tell Dagorlad now and then to betray to a proper class this is nothing more than friendly teasing and I'm glad he's in Validus and I'm glad he's a mystic cause (dont read passed this part Dagorlad since your ego dont really need boosting) he's probably the best mystic on splitpaw.

[edit] misspelling like crazy [/edit]

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Validus vs RoK 2008 Video !

Dagorlad

I have read and reread your post. then i have been reading the differences in buffs/debuffs. You still haven't convinced me. the difference between the two classes is still.

Our healing bear being a joke and their spiritual circle not to bad.
their raw HP buff > our Sta buff. But overall we get the same tricks and can do the same job.

Thanks to EoF Mystics are made more versatile we can be both defensive or offensive healers. when an encounter asks for it we can do the defilers job. The rest of the time grab your spear and kick some ass.

I love our class as we have the most versality of the two shaman. We CAN be in the MT, and/or in the OT group, We can be with mages in the DPS group and best of all we CAN be with scouts in the group. Where do you place the defiler? exactly its either MT or OT group.

In my convo's with Ecoskii it always comes to the fact that Ecoskii wants to have the healer role of mystics. Well when theres a defiler online then the mystic won't get the "healer" role, so if he wants that role he probably needs to betray to defiler.

Question:
You have been a defiler and now your a mystic. So from your experience its easier to keep the maintank up? as a defiler or as mystic? and please state why its easier.


Is it really due to the fact of the spiritual circle and the more hp? or is it other tricks like their manaregen being better then ours?

I absolutely believe power regen is crucial in EoF raiding zones and thats where the real difference between defilers and mystics lay. One day we will get some love and they will make us less powerhungry shaman, untill then haunt your Conjuror (as you only can have goodies in your guild i take it) and your illusionist to feed you.

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Falik

It's 2800 give er take a few at M1 w/ heal gear and 5 points in AA. It's saved many of MT from going down on spike damage. As long as you have enough healers in the raid doing their job this spell does a shit TON of good. Being stuned for a little while makes it easy for me to go afk or actually watch the battle at hand and strat my next move more wisely.

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KFizzle

I have a 70 Mystic (Antarafein) and I have to say on any given fight i can equal or outheal any Defiler ... But thats not the point being made here. The point isnt even "Mystics should be in the MT group" ... the point is "Mystics have lots of great things that either have restrictions which suck (Oberons Stun, i'm sorry but anyone who says they use it in the MT Group makes me sad, to me its the "AFK" ward only, I can be much more useful throwing up other wards, debuffing and attempting to DPS cause unlike most of the peeps here i think the highest i ever pulled on a raid was 375 or so), or aren't strong enough (Torpor, our Bear thingy)."

If you want to make Oberon more useful at least remove the stun and change it to a stiffle...i still wouldnt just it much but if i did at least i wouldnt just be a statue. Or maybe make Oberon raidwide, as said earlier it would be 'overpowered' but not if it retained its stun/stiffle component i dont think ... although maybe i'm wrong and it still would but I tell ya, i'd actually start using it more than when i gotta take a quick piss.

Torpor? Increase the amount of the ward or the regen...or maybe make it tick longer ...

Since we cant buff as much HP we more than likely wont ever be in the MT Group, maybe increase our debuffs? Defilers can do more DPS (at least from what i'm told and what i can tell myself), so if we're to be more defensive give us a bigger edge there with our debuffs.

The Defiler Mana regen is retardedly higher than ours, but i'm not even asking for anything like that ... Increase Debuffs, make Oberon less penalizing, and increase either our bear or torpor or both. Making us more 'power efficient' would be nice, but still ... any of those would be worth it.

BTW I know most of this is already said in bits and pieces in many posts, but Christ i had to throw my two cents into the mystic board!

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