Left Out - Page 2

Siyan · 03-06-2009, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantas

It is up to you as a player to make yourself an asset to the raid, that then bitch about shortcomings.

You're seeing the apple but forgetting about the tree. If guilds/raids won't recruit you, because of your class, it makes this whole argument irrelevant.

As I said before, nobody is saying that players don't make the class. But if you're blackballed on principal (and since noone needs more than one necro to begin with) it doesn't matter how good you are.

I think that was the focal point of the OP's comments. Not "OMG my dps sucks, my guild kicked me out."

Manratten · 03-06-2009, 12:17 PM

Does player ability matter....sure.

But...does...

"Player > Class. Enough said. This goes for any class."

...really hold true?

Give me a break. There is a reason that there are 4 or more chanters in most raid forces, to go along with 4 or more bards. It isn't because Illusionists and Dirges/Troubs completely rule all in playing ability. It's because generally, class is more important than ability.

I generally play an illusionist. If my group in the raid (whatever that raid may be) has 5 people in it currently, lets say a Wiz, Templar, Ranger, myself (Illus), and a Warlock. We know have a chance to add a last player, the absolute top necro world wide, god-emperor of the undead, ruler of rotting world....or.....the Troubador who joined the guild yesterday, who is somewhat decent, but is admittedly the 3rd best (at best) bard even in the current raid force.

I choose the bard. The Wiz choose the bard. The Ranger will choose the bard. The Warlock chooses the bard. The other 18 people not in the group choose the bard. The only person who wants the necro in the group....is the necro himself.

That doesn't mean the necro plays poorly, or would do less DPS than the bard himself, but that because of how things work (right now anyway).

Now, that said...there is NO WAY everyone here doesn't know this already, so not real sure why people have their head in the sand.

Davngr · 03-06-2009, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantas

Our guild runs with a Necro and no Conj... Is never sat and always has a consistent parse. One of our very solid players.

Utopi is correct. Regardless of what class you play, it all boils down to how much you understand your toon and it's purpose on a raid. Just because Necro's don't have anything that jumps out at a raid leader that says "holy shit take me with you or you'll fail..." It is up to you as a player to make yourself an asset to the raid, that then bitch about shortcomings.

i know what my necro can do and how to make him get there the problem is that he needs too much support to just put keep up.

the class needs an over haul and i still hate the fuck out of lifeburn.. having my dps directly depend on another player is just fucking stupid. that needs to change imo and my necr needs some fucking type of utility so im not just there taking buffs and putting up average parse while not giving anything back.

things are much better now but still not balanced.

Elric187 · 03-06-2009, 02:47 PM

There's no doubt necros and summoners in general have been given short shrift big time lately - gear that makes us choose between our pets and ourselves; (for necros) a level 80 spell that sucks ass (damn I'd like it if necros would simply get communion); and almost a complete lack of raid utility (hearts/rezzes are completely unnecessary if chanters and dirges are doing their jobs). This pisses me off, but bitching about it won't do anything. At least is hasn't so far.

For everyone who is complaining about LB - then drop it. Depending on your group, you'll do more DPS without casting it TBH. And if you are doing an "average parse" check your casting order and gear. The only people who outparse my necro regularly are assassins and a time comp'd wizzy. Illys and brigs can come close, but not consistently.

Fantas · 03-06-2009, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siyan

You're seeing the apple but forgetting about the tree. If guilds/raids won't recruit you, because of your class, it makes this whole argument irrelevant.

As I said before, nobody is saying that players don't make the class. But if you're blackballed on principal (and since noone needs more than one necro to begin with) it doesn't matter how good you are.

I think that was the focal point of the OP's comments. Not "OMG my dps sucks, my guild kicked me out."

Yeah, I get it. But when getting a raid together... what do you do. 3-4 fighters, 5-8 healers, 4-8 utility, 4-6 dps classes. You want to complain about who gets to go on a raid... Raids take fewer fighters then DPS classes... sooo where is the disconnect? Necros are a DPS class... so are you asking for more dps, or some sort of utility to make you more appealing?

Personally, Like I had said in my first post. Our necro is a HUGE asset to the guild. He puts up beastly numbers, knows his role, and has never me down.

When he had app'd, we were just looking to fill a mage DPS position. I didn't care what class so long as they met whatever standard we had set for them.

Yeah, there are always going to be things that we need/should/want to be fixed. Regardless of the situation though the player has to be creative and do what he can to make himself/herself more marketable.

I have no issues with any class so long as they perform, shame on any other GL/RL that doesn't see things that way.

Davngr · 03-06-2009, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elric187

There's no doubt necros and summoners in general have been given short shrift big time lately - gear that makes us choose between our pets and ourselves; (for necros) a level 80 spell that sucks ass (damn I'd like it if necros would simply get communion); and almost a complete lack of raid utility (hearts/rezzes are completely unnecessary if chanters and dirges are doing their jobs). This pisses me off, but bitching about it won't do anything. At least is hasn't so far.

For everyone who is complaining about LB - then drop it. Depending on your group, you'll do more DPS without casting it TBH. And if you are doing an "average parse" check your casting order and gear. The only people who outparse my necro regularly are assassins and a time comp'd wizzy. Illys and brigs can come close, but not consistently.

you really think that man? you think i can drop lifeburn and do ok dmg? i think not. and it fuckign sux that i have to depend on another class to put my numbers up. wizards will put up better more concitant numbers with full fire/ice build but a necro that cant/doesen't use lifeburn is gona parse like crap in raids.

even with the broken T2 legen robe necro's where not putting up INSANE T1 dps zw.. the class NEEDS some love and it's fucking bullshit that dev's are looking to fucking break fighters before the do something as simple as letting pets and casters share stats in teh same way that they share crit mitt. you're living in a fucking fantacy if you think necro's are balanced.
im not saying i can't do top 5 with a good healer and troub but that's working my ass off and still not giving anything back to the raid.
presently the only reason to bring a necro to a raid is.. i like you come raid with me. that's it wiz/lock will do more dmg and illy/coercer will add more utillity.

granted gear helps, gear is not suppose to balance a class and that's exactly what the deal is now.

Elric187 · 03-06-2009, 09:25 PM

Look, I hear ya man, and I think the devs are pricks for not paying any attention to summoners, while making scout loot drop like candy in TSO and leaving out mage loot, but I can only tell you what I see on my own parses on raids. If you just wanna kick back and not try, then I wouldnt want you in my raid either. Necros can add things to raids as well: be fast on rezzes, throw a heal or cure (either arcane or nox with the AA line) on the tank or healers, and give hearts to power mongers who can't control themselves, as well as do some nice dps. Are we broke? Yeah. Is that gonna make me quit, no. So you can get busy livin', or get busy dyin'. It's your choice, Red.

Siyan · 03-07-2009, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantas

Yeah, I get it. But when getting a raid together... what do you do. 3-4 fighters, 5-8 healers, 4-8 utility, 4-6 dps classes. You want to complain about who gets to go on a raid... Raids take fewer fighters then DPS classes... sooo where is the disconnect? Necros are a DPS class... so are you asking for more dps, or some sort of utility to make you more appealing?

Personally, Like I had said in my first post. Our necro is a HUGE asset to the guild. He puts up beastly numbers, knows his role, and has never me down.

True, there are usually less fighters taken on a raid than DPS -- however, there are more DPS classes than fighter classes, and statistically speaking, I'd say their population numbers serverwide are probably closer to 3:1 in favor of DPS. Or at least it seems that way.

But back to DPS, I don't need to top the parse at 13k to be happy. But something does need to change.

One thing would be pet survivability, particularly for the mage pet. To make up roughly 25% of our dps (just an estimate), she too frequently and too easily gets killed. Particularly if you're on a raid, and she dies early on, that's a sizeable portion of DPS gone. Even if you summon her back, you have to buff her back up for her to be relevant again. And if you don't, you're bringing a knife to a gun fight.

And not to beat a dead horse, but Lifeburn is another one that should be looked at. As has been stated, in order for us to do our job, we need a -great- deal more help than other classes. Which in and of itself is somewhat ironic, given the fact that we're arguably the best 'solo' class in the game. Different scenarios, but amusing nonetheless.

Those are some of the bigger things, imo, but I don't think it would take much to make us more desireable if they just tweaked things in the right direction. But as it stands now, an equally skilled and geared necro < an equally skilled and geared anything else.

Davngr · 03-07-2009, 03:39 PM

limited pets die from anything, main pets die from uncured dots. soe should really make the pet immune to all dot's or make a cure pet ability(for all dots not just nox/mental).

yes it WILL NOT wipe the raid if the dot is left on the pet but it will kill the pet, now you might say you dont have that problem because you raid with two healers or an inquis that can group cure everything. yet another aspect of the necro(summoner that requires WAY too much support for ok dmg output.

i'm not saying the class needs an easy button(i hate easy ie. lifeburn) but it deff needs some cool abillity to make it shine(just a lil) and the class needs to do about the same dps it does now(maybe a lil more) with being less depedent on the *perfect* set up. after all, it's fine that illys require the perfect set up(gear/group) to put up respectable numbers because they all ready bring so much to the raid it's self balanced, but a summoner brings next to nothing so they should require very lil to nothing to put out respectable dmg.

Utopi · 03-08-2009, 01:00 AM

Any class that can parse 10k on an avatar is valuable to a raid force. Trust me.