Tharinor

I know some people keep saying "don't compare it to other class epics blah blah blah" but let's face it, that's the only base we have to go on. While you don't want the epics to all do the same thing, you DO want them to have roughly the same utility for each class, and we all know that there are multiple classes that feel they need tweaks to their epic to be on par with other epics. So the options are, either nerf the epics with higher utility and effectiveness, or enhance those that are considered sub-par. Nobody likes nerfs, but everyone loves enhancements even to their friends (so long as it's not unfair to themselves).

So here are my suggestions:

Look at the attribute/health/power stats and consider tweaking them slightly to be more in line with other mythical weapons. If you compare ours to others, ours seems to be a bit off.

Marr's Favor - I don't like this at all. +heal is almost completely lost on raiding Paladins. We just don't heal or ward nearly as much as this proc might suggest we do, and that's ignoring how likely it is that we even cast a healing spell while this proc is active which may be slim. IMO, ditch +heal and change it to something else. Change it to +dps or +parry or riposte or something of that nature. It doesn't have to be much, but those would all have more utility than +50 heal even if the +50 heal were 100% of the time.

Remove +100 CA damage and instead make it +5 shield effectiveness or block. I don't know why you would try to make the distinction in EoF that Paladins are the "Block Kings" and then completely change this around by not giving us block on our epic mythicals but giving warriors both +5 shield effectiveness and removing the shield restrictions from Guardians.

Without more information on Holy Avenger, I think it should be switch to an AA enhancing affect. I like 2 possible options here: Either:

1) have it enhance divine aura so that divine aura is more useful on high end raids even as an OT (you don't have to be a MT to have this skill be useful). Remove the 50% total health restriction and also reduce the duration. Don't have to be crazy here to be very effective. I think a recast reduction would be good for longer fights without being unfair to other classes or making us more uber than they are.

or

2) Consider having it grant us full trample full-time. This might be nice for some fights and Avatars, but its utility is arguably less than option 1 due to the lack of enough group encounters in RoK.


Increase melee crit to 8, or drop it to 4 and add 4 double attack. I don't like the idea of adding spell crit because it's already high for us and most of our DPS is melee at this level. Since we're a hybrid, it might be fair to consider upping the total number from 8 to 10 here (split between any combination of melee crit, double attack, and spell crit) since our DPS enhancements are split among spells and melee and therefore we might not see as much improvement from +8 melee as others might.

Add +10 defense, or some parry (maybe not +10 but whatever seems fair here). The point is, warriors are both getting +10 defense and we're not getting anything of equivalent utility as I see it.

Drop +slashing to +8.

Gilgame

all the item needs is +5 block chance so it can match soulfire.

other than that, im not hoping for too much more, but the loss of block from switching from soulfire is devastating.

__________________

Tharinor

You're right, in that just adding the block alone would make a huge difference in making people happy. But at the same time, at the very least, they should look at the lack of +defense and why we only get +6 melee crit to the +8 of others. I'm sure this is a problem with more epics than just ours and should be looked at for each sub-class.

My personal feeling on this entire subject in regards to ALL epics was that whoever designed them did not put enough time into QA testing the weapons and getting solid numbers on how everything worked out for each class, and they didn't seem to put much thought into trying to keep them balanced across sub-classes.

Vainamoinen

I sent this to Oisin in a PM a coupla days ago, just to get things off my chest:

Some of my ideas on how changes should be implemented and what changes can be made:

1) Priority should be given to any changes that effect both versions of the epic. I think it would be unfair to address only the top-tier raiders - the "casual" community of raiders and non-raiders alike should have access to a weapon that is better than what the current fabled offers.

2) Nuke the +slashing/crushing on all fighter weapons and replace them with a +defense (which should be of equal amount across the board, but could address +parry, +defense, +whatever)

3) Nuke the +crit/+double-attack chances and replace with +5 block/+5 deflection. This way they are, at least, on par with their SoD counterparts.

4) Now, the Truth of Marr proc should be dealt with accordingly (I'm thinking this proc could be adressed across the board for all classes, but will stick to Pallies from here on in). This proc should not be a +spell damage/+heals - it should, instead, be a +base damage%, so as to avoid any cap issues. It could, possibly, be altered to +5% (or higher) base spell and CA damage. It would likely be easier to push +5% (or higher) base spell damage and heal amount. I also think it should proc of of any attack (if they want to scale the % down because of this, that would be fine)

I think these points would then cover off all of the issues with the fabled and some of the issues with the mythical.

To complete the "fix" for the mythical, I suggest the following:

1) +10 slashing upgraded along the lines of the fabled (+10 defense);

2) +6 melee crit replaced by +6 (or +7) shield block;

3) +100 CA replaced by +8 crit chance (Spell? melee?) or +8 double-attack or something;

4) Truth of Marr: +10% higher spell damage (& CA damage or heal amount);

5) Holy Avenger: in no way, shape or form should this be a group (or even raidwide) heal. Sure we can heal, but our heals are best utilized to address spike damage on ourselves (or another MT). Thus, I think Holy Avenger could address one of 3 things:

- some sort of "pet" that acts as its own Divine Aura (insta-cast on clickie, abosorbs all damage for on attack or siginificantly reduces damage for multiple attacks)

- some sort of "pet" that acts as an emergency Holy Touch or Divine Favour. If the pally is hit with a killing blow, the pet will expend itself and heal pally for something like 90% of max HP, or (in the spirit of Divine Favour) lets Pally die and revives Pally at 90% health (maybe 15% power) with, perhaps, a short duration reduction in threat.

I'm not sure if this makes Holy Avenger over-powered, but it certainly makes it more applicable.

6) Touch of Life to remain "as is";

7) Fix the stats

Admittedly, these changes will have to be made incrementally, if at all, by SoE. They will also have to address the ENTIRE community as we paladins are not the only class a little disgruntled. I'm quite tempted to make a polll in the Items sub-forum to see how many people would support a re-vamp of the epics and ask for them to make a single suggestion on a proposed change. My only hesitation lies in the fact that it might de-rail pretty quick....


Anyway, sorry to pick you as the one I would unload all of this on but I figured the boards had their fill of me yesterday!

Vain

aka Vanity Smurf ;)<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

__________________
I miss your kissing and I miss your head
And a letter in your writing doesn't mean you're not dead
Run outside in the desert heat
Make your dress all wet and send it to me

Abel

I agree that adding block will make any plate tank class happy in replacing soulfire for tanking.

Oizen

The Truth of Marr

MYTHICAL
LORE NO-TRADE

+52 str +62 str +42 sta +24 agi +32 wis +24 int
+295 health +275 power
+10 slashing +10 slashing +8 Defense
+6 Melee Crit Chance +8 Melee Crit Chance
+100 combat art damage +5 Shield Block Chance
Marr's Favor
Holy Avenger
Touch of Life

Sword
One-Handed Slashing (Primary)
Damage 73-411 (120.9 Rating)
Delay 4.0 seconds
Weight 2.5

Level 80
Paladin

Effects:

• When Equipped:
  • When target casts a spell this spell has a 9% chance to cast Marr's Favor on caster. Lasts for 15.0 seconds.
    • Increase the healing and damage of the spells by up to 50% of your total wisdom
  • This spell can not be modified except by direct means
  • Applies Holy Avenger when activated. Lasts for 24.0 seconds.
    • Summons a Holy Avenger that transfers life from surrounding enemies to your allies.grants immunity to Paladin's group members for area effect abilities that do not directly target them.
• When Equipped:
  • Reduces all physical damage done to target by 10%
  • When the Paladin takes damage they will heal themselves for 10% of the damage amount.

That pretty much epic'ifies it for Paladins in my mind and these are not unreasonable wild changes.


(EDIT: Although I'd like to see Touch of Life also remove 50% health caveat on Divine Aura but that would make the item absolutely perfect.)

__________________

EvilIguana966

I won't see the mythical version till at least level 90 so I'll just chime in on the effect that it shares with the fabled version. IMO it should reduce the cast time of all our spells by 50% on the fabled epic, 75% on the mythical version. That way you actually make our spells something that can be used reliably in heroic and epic content respectively.

Tharinor

I'm not sure I'd want the Paladin class to have an AE blocker, but that's my only negative critique of Oisin's suggestion. I'd rather it either stay similar with minor adjustments, or get changed to something with good utility for the role of OT/DPS/Add control.

boli

dump +100 CA and add +5 block

and dump faerie ally... sorry holy avanger and get a *much* better ability in place; I suggest when equiped : "+50% bonus to end line AA abilities; either in recast damage or effecitivness).

ubbah enough to warrrent an epic mythical and not overpowered enough to shout nerf about. and imho perfct as it satifies all aspects of the paladin without compromising others.

Spoof

If it added +5 block OR removed the 50% HP requirement from Divine Aura I would be happy.