boli

Stonewall
Priority: High

Problem: This ability is vastly underpowered; it is by far of the weakest "immunity" buttons of all the tanks, and it is the only one we have. It may be comparable to the guardian's block but stonewall costs 180 AA to get where as the block ability only costs 23 AA and its on a longer recast timer than block. (60s vs 90s)

Suggested fix: Add a health minimum (30%?) to cause it to trigger and have 2 triggers. To keep with the paladin flavour some people have mentioned a large ward to be instant cast the moment a trigger fires; and although I am amiable to that idea I would prefer 2 triggers over 1 trigger and a ward.


Paladin Utility
Priority: High

Problem: All a paladin's utility is easily wrapped under the heading of "hey paladins can heal"; no considering that healers can also heal. At best it gives flexibility to our role but does not grant additional utility. A raid with a paladin in it performs the same as on without a paladin in it; especially later in the expansion where people have geared up more. Currently right now paladins bring the ability to tank grab and hold agro; we have nothing outside of this to offer a raid force.

Suggested fix: If the "paladins can heal" angle is going to be used throughout the paladin utility line then making sure it both stacks with current healers and differs significantly so that bringing a Paladin along will be beneficial to the raid; a raid/group wide heal/ward proc perhaps.

Alternative Fix: Moving away from the healing aspects something as simple as increasing the range of all spells by 5 will be a tweak which other classes will see and enjoy he fact they have a paladin in the raid force.

Alternative Fix: Or something less subtle and more powerful, 10% reuse/casting speed perhaps?

As you can see by the number of suggestions this is a issue which all paladins feel strongly about and should be addressed.


Divine Favor
Priority: Medium

Problem: The 12s or 6s daze/stifle is just a ridiculous drawback to this spell; even if we have 2 escape deaths trigger on us (i.e. a healer casts theirs and ours trigger) we are still stuck with the 12 daze/stifle to deal with.

Suggested fix: Originally in the fighter revamp we had a 2 stoneskin trigger be cast upon us when it triggered instead if the daze/stifle. We would like that back considering we are meant to be the 2nd most defensive tank.

Alternative Fix: If that isn't possible having the 4 set bonus remove the 12s daze/stifle entirely would be ideal... after all it is not like we are asking for a second trigger (bloodletter).


Aura of the Crusader
Priority: Medium

Problem: This ability does not work against incurable effects making the usage entirely hit and miss.

Suggested fix: Make it so the 20s immunity is granted regardless of whether or not anything is dispelled.


Power Issues
Priority: Medium / Low

Problem: In order to be effective a Paladin has to invest heavily in power proc gear; whilst this is a suitable gear solution in this expansion there still remains the disparity between power usage and overall effect gained from most of a paladin's spell collection.

Suggested fix: Re-evaluate the power costs for most of the combat arts/spells and compare them to equivalent ones from warriors/brawlers/SKs, and you'll see a disparity in that we often expend the same power for less damage. Reducing the power costs to closer match the output effect. Add this to the fact we are casting heals as well causes us to be complete power hogs.

Alternative Fix: Modify or add power procs to some of our spells; mainly to help those paladins who do not yet have access to power proc gear.


Holy Avenger (Mythical Clicky)
Priority: Low

Problem: The cast speed is too slow for a clicky item a often resists even against a fully debuffed mob; also if the mob in question is dispelled the Avenger is lost causing paladins to change targets on another mob and back again in order for it to be up for its entire duration. Overall this is the weakest of all the mythical click is an aside from heroic zones or soloing it is relatively useless especially in raid zones.

Suggested fix: In truth if this was a permanent pet it will not be game breaking and add much needed utility (the heals are worth more than the dps it does). If this is not possible casting it as a temporary pet we can direct to our targets instead of having to cast on specific targets will help enormously; and fix at least the problems concerning resists/cancelled early

Alternative Fix: Remove clicky entirely and add a secondary proc that is useful in all situations.


Knight's Stance
Priority: Low

Unlike warrior buffs this has no parry on it; considering in the fighter changes we gained parry; it only seems natural to put parry back on the defensive stance again.


Demonstration of Faith
Priority: Low

Problem: This ward is one shotted through even against solo mobs; and the cast speed is painfully slow compared to our other heals (2s Vs 1.5s).

Suggested fix: Considering the SK reactive equivalent is on a 1.5s cast speed DoF should be reduced to the same.

Alternative/Additional Fix: To deal with the fact it is on shotted a lot of the time increasing the ward will be the first step; although I would prefer it if the ward granted additional protection i.e. +5 mitigation whist the ward is up. It was the original idea to have our fighter avoid (Resolute Faith) grant +5 mitigation; attaching the same effect to our ward will give us added utility.


Divine Aura
Priority: Low

Problem: Whilst this is a powerful ability in its own right; it is often overlooked because of its issues rather than its benefits. I will admit that increasing its immunity/recast further will only widen the gap between paladins and Shadowknights and will not be implemented; the casting speed however is a drawback; which does not unbalance the classes and slants more in favour of user skill than user luck

Suggested fix: Reduce the cast speed of Divine Aura significantly ideally instant cast as it is an emergency spell and should be used as such.


Arch Heal
Priority: Low

Problem: According to the description; it is a large heal; in practice however because of the tweaks to our own heals since this was implemented arch heal costs significantly more grants less heath per power and casts slower. All in all it is an inferior heal and as far as I know no paladin actually speced this.

Suggested Fix: Significantly change the arch heal to more match the description given, i.e. increase the amount healed.

Alternative Fix: Change the end line of the healing tree to be something more than “just another heal”:

- A buff which procs wards/heals across he entire group/raid
- Adds a significant hate portion to all heals
- A large regenerative ward
- vastly increase all a paladin’s heals.

There are numerous things that can be done to this lacklustre ability; more so because very few use it in order to allow heals and tanking to combine; as was the original envisage of the paladin class.

Irgin

Stonewall

suggestion: what the hell.....ok leave the 90secs recast - at least its instant, but it should offer stoneskin (2 triggers seem enough)

Demonstration of Faith

suggestion: double the ward amount, leave the rest like it is

Divine Favor

suggestion: remove stifle/daze entirely - increase healing up to 100% and add a 10k ward - no another trigger needed so far

Aura of the Crusader

/agree Boli

Holy Avenger (Mythical Clicky)

suggestion: remove the clicky entirely and replace it with a proc that triggers on a sucessful melee attack, that increases worn armor by 10% for 20seconds

reason: paladin has no shortbuffs or abilities to increase his own mitigation - this would be something useful and isnt overpowered at all

(1.8 times a minute procchance of course)


Knights Stance

suggestion: parry wouldnt hurt...

Stonestrong

Stonewall

Problem: This abiilty is vastly underpowered; it is by far of the weakest "immunity" buttons of all the tanks, and it is the only one we have. It may be comparable to the guardian's block but stonewall coss 180 AA to get where as the block ability only costs 23 AA and its on a much shorter recast timer. (60s vs 90s)

Suggested fix: Make it 2 triggers of Stoneskin and add a 5K+ ward on the end

Demonstration of Faith


I don't really care about this.



Divine Favor

Problem: The 12s or 6s daze/stifle is just a rediculous drawback to this spell; even Iif we have 2 sape deahs trigger o us (i.e. a ehaler casts theirs) w are still stuk with the 12 daze/stifle to deal with.

Suggested fix: Get rid of the fucking stifle. Stoneskin would be nice at the end but I could live without it if they at least ditch the shitty stifle.

Aura of the Crusader

Problem: This ailiy does not work against incuable effects making th useage of entirely hit and miss.

Suggested fix: Make it work like the spell is worded when you read it. Make it work on curable and incurable detriments like it lists. Not half the time.

Holy Avenger (Mythical Clicky)

Problem: The cast speed is too slow for a clicky item a often resists even against a fully debuffed mob; also if the mob in question is dispelled the Avenger is lost causing paladins to change targets on another mob and back again in order for it to be up for its entire duration. Overall this is the weakest of all the mythical clickis an aside from herioc zones or soloing it is relativly useless especially in raid zones.

Suggested fix: I don't really care about this.


Paladin Utility

Problem: All a paladin's utlity is easily wrapped under the heading of "hey paladins can heal"; no considering that healers can also heal. At best it gives a flxibility to our role but does not grant additional utiliy. A raid with a paladin in it performs the same as on without a paladin in it; epescially later in the expansion where people have geared up more. Currently right now paladins bring the ablity to tank grab and hold agro; we have nothing ouside of this to offer a raid force.

Suggested fix: We should get something equivalent to the 10% reuse and casting speed(In worth).

Maybe like some pimp ass aoe avoid for the group or a group temporary immunity, kinda like Sanctuary. I'm not sure there are a lot of possibilities as currently all we have is Raidwide Armament and 5% BASE HEALING OMGOMGOM!



Knight's Stance

Unlike warrior buffs this has no parry on it; considering in the fighter changes we gained parry; it only seems natural to put parry back on the defensive stance again.

Sure

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Graal

Hi guys Long time lurker first time poster.... wait that sounds wrong.

Basicly I've been a pally since beta in EQ2 and I still love my character even though we've had the short end of the stick more than a few times.

We do need some love and I think this is a good contructive way of doing it. We just need a Dev to actually look at it.

I just wanted to point out that we are still missing any invunerabiliy for a duration.

Even two stone skins do not seem like a lot in comparison to 12/15 seconds immunity that the other tank classes have.

I agree that the other options do seem like a good idea. I would like to point out that although there are things that you don't care about Stone I would say that not every pally out there has your skill and gear, for those not able to hit the level you are abile to, those things make a huge difference in keeping pallys pallys, rather than jumping to the FOTM for an easier time.

I mean no disrespect but I think we need to think of all pally's not just those at end game.

Stonestrong

You have a point, I am in favor of Boli's suggestions of the things I said I didn't care about. I just know that getting things changed is hard so I tend to focus on the things that I would rank as priority when making a list like this.

So the things I said I didn't care about are more so just things that I didn't think were as important. I understand that some of the smaller things might be much more beneficial to other people than me and I'm not against the suggestions or changes, just didn't really consider them quite as important.

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boli

I'll leave this thread up for a week or so and post it on the official forums. I'll try and tweak it to best demonstrate what people see as most imporant and/or alternative fixes to problems.

I think I'll reorganise it into high, medium and low priority... I know the litte things such as reducing our ward cast time to 1.5s or so may not matter much to most; but it is currently our most defensive ablity (fun eh? :P) and having it up for less time than it takes to cast it is a bit wrong imho.

If anyone disagrees with any of the points and thinks they should not even be on the list know of better "fixes" or oher issuses plase reply; I think I've got most of them.

Stonestrong

Excellent work man......

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Jeal

*nods

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Zianlo

Im an alt pally, but just a reply to the immunity thingy: Paladins do have the option *some* immunity to damage for a short duration through AA. Not many attacks do over 50% of your max hp, so those hits are negated.

And the ones that do happen to cause more than 50% or more hp dmg, well, by the time you cast that spell and have the connected macro spammed to group chat, you should be fully healed anyways.

Its not the best aa spec for dps, but fuck it...I play my paladin to be a meatshield and hold aggro, if I want to dps or heal I play my brig or my warden.

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Stonestrong

Thats a crusader AA, not just Pally. Also the casting time on it is too long........

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