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  1. #1
    Player versus Tard
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    Default Are Bards Required in Raids

    I was browsing the official forums and had a thought, is it worth bringing a bard to a raid at all? I know we always had an issue finding someone willing to play a bard because:

    1. It's boring to play
    2. It's terrible dps

    Now looking at the buff list:

    Rift Buffs and Debuffs « Bluedots Guides

    what exactly is the bard bringing? From the buff/debuff list all I see that's unique is verse of joy and the 5% extra healing.

    Since BD is a viable and popular build now, why not go with it and have one heavier BD, and an inquisitor/justicar for superior aoe healing then the bard instead. An inquisitor with 11 points in justicar can aoe heal for more then a bard with a very small dps loss. Then have the a BD maintain dauntless strike. The other advantage is the inquis justicar can spec for the soul drain debuff, which adds 7% onto magic damage which most raids are missing.

    You'd probably gain about 1k raid dps by getting rid of the bard altogether. Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Amuse Me Serianna's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are Bards Required in Raids

    That's interesting info.

  3. #3
    You know the rules
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    Default Re: Are Bards Required in Raids

    if anything, for the stats buffs. since their healing is terrible, thats nothing you need replacement for.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Are Bards Required in Raids

    I run a hybrid DPS/bard spec (sig) right now for experts (figured that a full bard isn't really worth it).

    With it, I can put out very reasonable DPS. Rotation is:

    Fiery Spike x 3 > Power Chord > Coda of Wrath

    {Cadence > Power Chord > Coda of Wrath
    Twilight Force > Fiery Spike > Cadence >Coda of Wrath} - Repeat

    For AE it's spam Weapon Flare/Fiery Chains.

    For burst DPS, there's Virtuoso (Spam Coda of Wrath/Fury after the damage increase debuff) and Ebon Fury (Spam Dusk Strike when you can be in melee range and Twilight force when you can't).


    The spec retains it's general buffs, and still helps by providing good DPS.
    Slightly retarded some of the time. Completely the rest.

  5. #5
    Player versus Tard
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    Default Re: Are Bards Required in Raids

    Our inquis-justi does 700 dps and 500 hps on aoe healing encounters. His single target, from range, is 900 if he doesn't have to worry about healing.

    Stat buffs are definitely good... 5% extra healing vs 7% extra magic damage, plus healing/dps differentials. I don't know.

    What numbers are you putting up?

    Looking at the list of buffs, I can't say for sure which are redundant... because I don't know warriors well. If paragon str buff and all the warlord buffs are easy to get then essentially bards provide:

    13% ap reduction vs 10% = because of rounding only shows up on 40+ cost abilities.
    13 more str/dex
    stat buffs from resonance
    5% extra healing

    It might be like EQ2 in the first expansion. Everyone ran with wardens in G1 for a bit because they assumed they were required, and only slowly caught on that someone else was better in that slot. You'd think bards are providing something but I'm not so sure.

    Maybe similar to wardens they're only required when breaking in new content? Even then...

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Are Bards Required in Raids

    I'm right now in T1 gear on it.

    Single Target boss fights are usually ~400-600 depending on how long they last.

    Trash pulls are around 1k-2k w/ Virtuoso, and a crappy 600-800 without.

    It's by no means DPS numbers, but it's still not 'terrible'.

    Here's a 2 minute dummy parse w/stats

    Weapon DPS is 29.2 MH and 26.2 OH. This was with keeping up all 5 motifs (to simulate a group environment) and keeping Coda of Distress up (more or less used that as a timer for the fight). Also was not without it's fair share of rotation screw-ups, I let fiery spikes drop once or twice and then just some random screw ups in the middle.

    For bosses and this fight I used the following:

    Fiery Spike x3 (unsure if this is the right thing to do given the fact that I let it drop) > Power Chord > Virtuoso > Coda of Distress > Coda of Wrath for the duration of Virtuoso

    Once Virtuoso is burned I refreshed motifs and then use up Ebon Fury:

    Fiery Spike x3 > Dusk Strike > Scourge of Darkness > Ebon Fury >

    {Dusk Strike x3 > Coda of Wrath > Dusk Strike > Fiery Spike > Dusk Strike>Coda of Wrath} Repeat until Ebon Fury is over

    Refresh motifs and move on to my previously stated rotation. I did use Scourge of Darkness a second time in this fight, and probably should've used it a third, but that's another mistake.


    It's by no means "perfect", it can definitely be improved, but it seems to do a lot better than most bards I've seen in experts in terms of DPS (and healing too, if that matters at all), without sacrificing too much in terms of support.


    EDIT: A little bit better on the rotation this time around. Was dealing with a bit of lag though, but you get the gist.
    Slightly retarded some of the time. Completely the rest.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
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    Default Re: Are Bards Required in Raids

    For just about all of my dps scout builds not having the extra 3% from fervor makes a very noticeable and dps hindering difference

  8. #8
    The Bard of Aigis
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    Default Re: Are Bards Required in Raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim View Post
    For just about all of my dps scout builds not having the extra 3% from fervor makes a very noticeable and dps hindering difference
    I know during my raids the warriors and rogues notice right away if Fervor is taken down (not just looking at the buff bar, but actually noticing energy starvation) and replaced with the cleric 10% buff.

    But after reading more and more and comparing buffs from other classes, and some of my experiences during raids I think the bard is becoming less and less useful. I used to parse high on the HPS charts (top 1-3) for the AE heavy bosses, but as the other healers in my guild have gotten better gear (so have I, but our heals don't scale as well as actual healers gear upgrades) I have slowly move down on the HPS Parse.

    My DPS has obviously increased, but as on the important fights I obviously run the 51 bard and the DPS output from that spec is not noticeable enough to make any difference in a raid. The only real saving grace for the bard right now is Verse of Joy, Fervor, and in some fights the runspeed buff.
    Tigruz
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  9. #9
    Celestial Voices dakkota's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are Bards Required in Raids

    I made up a way I feel is better to view what is being looked at here. Sorry if I missed one in the list, but this should serve its purpose.

    ************************************************

    bard:

    Fanfare of Vigor - Bard (Endurance Buffs.) - shares with 4 others (warlock, sentinel, purifier, paladin)

    Fanfare of Knowledge - Bard (Intellect Buffs.) - shares with 1 other (pyromancer)

    Fanfare of Knowledge - Bard (wisdom) - shares with 1 other (purifier)

    Fanfare of Power - Bard (dexterity) - shares with 1 other (bladedander)

    Anthem of Defiance - Bard (magic resistance) - shares with 5 others (archonn, warlock, shaman x3)

    Anthem of Glory - Bard (armor) - shares with 1 other (archon)

    Motif of Bravery - Bard (sp/ap) - shares with 2 others (warlord, air pet)

    Anthem of Fervor - Bard (cost reduction) - shares with 1 other (Chloromancer)

    Coda of Distress - Bard (magic debuff) - shares with 3 others (elementalist, archon, inquis)

    Coda of Cowardice - Bard (physical debuff) - shares with 3 others (shaman, archon, beastmaster)

    Motif of Focus - Bard (crit) - shares with 1 other (blandedander)

    Motif of Tenacity - Bard (damage reduction) - shares with 1 other (warlord)

    Motif of Grandeur - Bard (healing received) - unique


    *****************************


    What I see, is having a bard is one major gathering of possible buffs that to normally get a hold of would require ~13 other classes. This also doesn't factor in that to perfectly achieve that you would need the classes to have their specs appropriate to gain buff in question.

    If a bard took responsibility over a handful of these sort of buffs it would also allow more pure DPS classes to not have to stop hitting a DPS button for a debuff. Also, with buffs like their Fanfaires you have to look at it a bit different. A bard cannot play all of their fanfaires at once. I do not know if Bard fanfaire #1 stacks with other class buff #2 (that mimics other bard FF), but for example with FF buffs, the only class that shares 2/3 of those is purifier, so no other of those classes really provide the flexibility as the bards either. And also to bring back what I said, if pure dupe buffs dont stack (wis buff + wis buff from different class) but similar type of buffs stack (wis buff + int buff from different class) then you could simply compliment whatever class in raid is holding one of the dupe style bard buffs if they don't offer other ones like the bard does. This is something that would require decent communication between raiders but you could work it very efficiently with good knowledge of buffs. I also see that the motifs...the buffs the bard can stack up on, seem to be less granted from other classes. Warlord says it covers 2 of them, 1 is totally unique and the other is a buff from an 18 night blade - Which didn't look like an impressive DPS spell so theres prolly higher DPS things a NB could hit if he didn't have to use his crit buff. Havn't looked but maybe similar principled things could be said for the Warlords too.

    I havn't looked into this too deep and I certainly don't know the full functionality of the similar buffs mentioned from other classes...didn't research it that far to make this post...but there could be some things that mesh into what I said about the other classes too. That's just how I have been looking at it so far.


    ps. Bards are slow killers no doubt, much nicer to play one in a group. But man I think they are fun as hell. Class where its not really about your combo of spells but your situational awareness and knowledge of what helps a situation best. I think lots of general population shy from it cause it's not a straightforward simple class.

  10. #10
    You know the rules
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    Default Re: Are Bards Required in Raids

    hm. not exactly sure about the stat buffs. i know that neither of the shaman stat buffs stack with the archons "buff everything but end", no idea how they stack with bards.
    you can have 2 bard fanfares on you tho.

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