Is this why I can't keep agro at 80?

Zell · 02-04-2008, 02:55 PM

I started eq2 at launch, got to mid 40s and took a long break until a few months before RoK came out. I play with my wife nightly, we both 2box. Getting to 80 in this fashion was pretty simple, however now that we've started doing the 80 instances in PUGs I have ran across the agro issue a lot of SKs appear to have. Rather than bitch about it I thought I would throw my theory out as to why this is the problem, and see what you all thought. If it's right I know how to fix it. Anyhow...

My gear is mostly RoK quested stuff. I have the necklace from the necro quest in howling stones, and the boots from the dwarf quest in skyfire. Also have completed the Band of Thuuga. Outside of that my gear is just the general quest rewards, nothing spectacular.

My weapon is a MC item, again nothing special.

My spells are mostly app4/adept1s. I don't have the cash yet for adept3s or masters.

I would think this setup would be good enough to do the heroic instances in RoK, at least the easier ones. When doing instances I am only playing the SK. I was able to do vaults (with help from bloodletter), and CoA up to the lord guy the first time through.

This weekend we went back to CoA with my brother in law (80 assassin). Things went pretty well, we killed the lord guy on the second attempt, the emporer however was a problem. The assassin would grab agro, even after using DM/rescue/HT. If the assassin backed off he wouldn't die fast enough and the healers would run OOP. Group setup was 80fury/76mystic/80assassin/79ranger/77wizard and me (80 sk).

I tried both in offensive and defensive stance. I belive my ZW dps was mid 700s. I trust my bro in law's abilities and am sure he was doing everything he could to drop agro.

So my theory is the assassin (and probably the majority of other level 80s out there) are better equiped, comparibly, than I am which in turn makes them do more dps/generate more hate than I am able to. This generally wouldn't be a problem since they could just back off and let me keep agro, however with the DPS needed in RoK to kill even heroic stuff this creates a problem.

I've watched my wife play her 80 assassin in other groups, and they just blow through stuff with no issues. Most recently i've seen her in vaults/maidens chamber doing up to 3k on some fights, and never losing agro to the palladin doing 500dps. Is amends that good?

My theory: I think I need to up my DPS substantially in order to be a decent tank for heroic stuff. I'm close (I think) to my needed DPS in offensive stance, however the named stuff hurts too much to rely on this. So I either need better equipment to offset this, or up my DPS in defensive stance.

Looking at gear available on the broker I don't see enough to make up the difference for running offensive all the time. From what I see the MC is far below the RoK quest rewards. Is there better MC stuff than what I would be seeing on the broker? I've never seen this in other tiers so i'm thinking no. To be able to run in offensive stance I think I would need to run instances enough to get sanctification/ravaged onslaught. The problem is being able to finish the instances.

To run in defensive I think I would need to add a lot of DPS. I can do some of this by getting spells upraded to adept3, getting a better weapon and haste gear.

What I would like from you is to know if my theory is right or wrong. If wrong please post your thoughts and what you are doing differently to keep agro. Be it casting order, AAs, adornments or whatever.

If i'm right, I would love to see suggestions on stuff like:
simple weapon/armor upgrades I can get now (by simple stuff I can do in a mediocre group, or less)
any tips to maximize DPS with the crap I have now
Which spells to upgrade first. Currently when I get a rare I check in ACT to see which spell I am doing the most damage with, then upgrade that first.

Any input is appreciated.

My profile is on eq2players (Zelinar on Runnyeye), AA spec is pretty much what i've seen suggested by this site.

Thanks!

Pinski · 02-04-2008, 03:02 PM

Hit more buttons.

Lopann · 02-04-2008, 04:31 PM

Get ad3/ masters? thats what i would think the issue is...

Giralus · 02-04-2008, 04:56 PM

some idea's

last name in coa drops a sword with a 600 hate proc,

stay offensive but use a 1 hand and shield, you will have the added stats from the shield but still be able to do better dps then if you were in defensive

Increase your STR. try to get str and intell self buffed to Minimum 500 each. since most heriocs in rok you will be single pulling you lose out on the dps generated from multimob Ae's,

there are also some shoulders that are i believe from a quest line in KJ, they have a 20 hate proc on them and also there are some forarms with a hate proc of 600 on them(not sure if instance dropped or quested i forget )

try turning off your Siphon hate with the assasin , some poeple (myself included) have issues with hate bouncing around with certain classes when siphon hate is on , i have dou grouped with an asasin since release of game , we know how to dou together, and when i first took siphon hate we were in kaladim and suddenly we had many agro issues with hate bouncing wildly between us, canceling siphon hate ended the issues and i once again lost hate very very rarely and was able to pull it right back with rescue or ht or dm and not have agaro bounce back and forth 4 or 5 times

in groups im usualy doing between 1100 to 1400 dps on single target mobs , agro still is an issue with some classes becuase some classes are pushing out 4 to 5 K damage now, Deathmarch has become unreliable, HT on a 15 minute recast with only a 1500 increase in damage is also near useless, and rescue is unreliable becuase you diong 700 dps+tuants = about 2000 hate(just a guess) , and a dps class diong 3+k damage Ht/rescue/dm just arent enough to make up the differance in hate any longer.

paladins don't only have Amends, they also have Sigil , it grants them 32% of group hate , its a temp buff, but it blows away Deathmarch+Siphon hate anyday of the week.

alot of our skills in ROk have not been scaled properly and that also adds to our deficient dps and our agro issue's besides siphon hate being extremely underpowered compared to sigil.

Personaly i feel that Siphon hate should transfer 10 % of groups hate , and Death march should have a Agro transfer of 40 % on it this would bring us more in line with our counterparts Amends+Sigil.

at level 80 Sk.paly.guardians are all doing about the same amount of dps tanking , so the reason for sk's to have less agro abilities due to there ability to dps higher is no longer true Imo.

at the very least i think Hate over time should be removed and our tuants amounts increased, and our Defensive stance needs a serious buff becuase currently at 80 i believe or defensive stance gives us +20 def and that is pathetic, it also should not drop our intell down so much since SK's need dps to "maintain" agro becuase Tuant agro decreases overtime, so we use Hate over time to build agro when at the same time Tuant agro decreases overtime so Sk's have a double negative ( and no that doesnt equal a posative )

anyway like pinski said hit more buttons : 0 atleast you know your tryin your ass off, and just curse out SOE for there poor itemization for SK's and there borked spell increases from 70 to 80

PJesus · 02-04-2008, 07:23 PM

You'll need to tank via DPS.. theres a nice 2 hander from the same quest that anaphalaxis is from.. the Skelros 2 hander, you get the quest from the guy outside vaults and then he has you go to maidens to kill the scorp guy inside, I think its a 120dps 2 handed wep... Theres no excuse not to have adept 1s or 3s.. harvest the rares yourself and you won't need to spend the money.

Tyirul · 02-04-2008, 07:43 PM

Upgrade your spells, to Adept 3 all of them. What are your AA spec? You should be able to easily put out 1k dps if you try. DM has never failed me but meh. DT is a last resort Rescue, it sucks dont really bother with it. Keep taunting, use HO Taunts.

Btw, Sigil of Heroism is a fucking joke. It's damn near worthless.

inomae · 02-04-2008, 07:48 PM

stay offensive unless going down. Nefarious Caress and it's upgrades proc more when you're getting hit more often. As mentioned before get Nathsar Short Sword from boss in CoA with the 600hate proc. Use a nice shield. Upgrade your spells to minimum adept 3 taunts, DM, nefarious caress top priority.

USE HEROIC OPPS! I have two macros for mine. each linked with different actual combat arts on the same reuse timers as my aoe taunt and single target. So make a single target heroic opp and group ae heroic opp taunt macro. THIS MAKES ONE HELL OF A DIFFERENCE.

I haven't really been playing my SK lately even tho he was my original toon. I play my swash most often but back when 70 was cap I had hardly any problems holding aggro in offensive with the above mentioned except for that nice little hate proc blade.

Also use shield bash and kick as often as you can and string dots in between grave blessing (or it's upgrade) All these things will make the mob friggin hate you, and you won't be OOP every other fight.

LFG · 02-04-2008, 07:52 PM

I play this class as an alt rather than as my main, but my SK is 80 on Nagafen.

In my opinion, agro on SKs is currently the best it's ever been. My SK is hate spec'd in AAs, and I have zero problem holding agro except occasionally when grouped with warlocks and assassins who aren't trying to control agro.

Of all the real and perceived problems currently with the SK class, in my opinion agro control is at the bottom of the list. I've never been more satisfied with my ability to hold agro on my SK than I am now, and all my items proc damage rather than hate.

Nobody with AD3s and the AA hate spec should have ANY problem holding agro now. In PVE, I just use all my taunts everytime they are up plus Death March, and only need to use Rescue when a DPSr seems to be TRYING to take agro.

In my view, the biggest problem of the SK class is the longstanding perception that it is a waste of a raid slot. That is what we need help with most atm, not more hate.

Colcos~Firesword · 02-04-2008, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LFG

I play this class as an alt rather than as my main, but my SK is 80 on Nagafen.

In my opinion, agro on SKs is currently the best it's ever been. My SK is hate spec'd in AAs, and I have zero problem holding agro except occasionally when grouped with warlocks and assassins who aren't trying to control agro.

Of all the real and perceived problems currently with the SK class, in my opinion agro control is at the bottom of the list. I've never been more satisfied with my ability to hold agro on my SK than I am now, and all my items proc damage rather than hate.

Nobody with AD3s and the AA hate spec should have ANY problem holding agro now. In PVE, I just use all my taunts everytime they are up plus Death March, and only need to use Rescue when a DPSr seems to be TRYING to take agro.

In my view, the biggest problem of the SK class is the longstanding perception that it is a waste of a raid slot. That is what we need help with most atm, not more hate.

Agreed... I'm not even hate spec'd... I'm full DPS spec'd... but even in instances when i need to put my tank gear on and my DPS is considerably lower than it is with my offensive gear, I rarely have issues with hate gain.

Kalath · 02-04-2008, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LFG

I play this class as an alt rather than as my main, but my SK is 80 on Nagafen.

In my opinion, agro on SKs is currently the best it's ever been. My SK is hate spec'd in AAs, and I have zero problem holding agro except occasionally when grouped with warlocks and assassins who aren't trying to control agro.

Of all the real and perceived problems currently with the SK class, in my opinion agro control is at the bottom of the list. I've never been more satisfied with my ability to hold agro on my SK than I am now, and all my items proc damage rather than hate.

Nobody with AD3s and the AA hate spec should have ANY problem holding agro now. In PVE, I just use all my taunts everytime they are up plus Death March, and only need to use Rescue when a DPSr seems to be TRYING to take agro.

In my view, the biggest problem of the SK class is the longstanding perception that it is a waste of a raid slot. That is what we need help with most atm, not more hate.

I gotta disagree partially. I went from Pally to SK because SKs are better solo, and the biggest thing I've noticed is the agro. Pallys can go pretty laid back about it all and maintain agro, cycle a few taunts, throw amends on the big hitter and you've got agro 99% of the time.

With an SK, I generally pull with wrath for the nuke, then cycle all taunts, then spam all my spells, and repeat. Usually I'm losing agro by the end of the fight if I don't have some sort of hate increaser. Obviously I can hit Death March and rescue to get it back, but these things don't really have a solid snap to them, it gets agro and holds it for about 20 seconds before things are back to how they are before.

What I mean is there's no real sustainability to it. Maybe it's just me and the fact that I suck at SK or something.

Oh, and SKs aren't a waste of a raid spot, anyone who thinks that has never had a good SK in a decent group in their raid.