Just what does "AOE Tank" mean?

Xryce_AB · 02-21-2009, 12:02 PM

Everyone has already started complaining about the "nerf" that is coming to SKs. What I don't get is how we can easily fight 6 separate mob encounters at the same time, and not even break a sweat. There is a person in my guild who has no less than 5 level 80 character's and even she admitts SKs are powerful. So, this "nerf" that everyone is worried about, don't tell me you didn't see this coming. And it's not the typical "SOE is screwing us over!" This one is a little deserved. Admitt it.

This brings me to the concept of the "AOE Tank". What is this supposed to mean? Does it mean that the SK can tank 5 different encounters at the same, while a "Single Target Tank" can only handle one? If so, how is that balanced? We are not talking about linked mobs here, which btw most people freak out over, but linked encounters are no more difficult than single mob encounters. So,if an SK or Berzerker can handle 5 encounters at once, wouldn't that make them 5 times better than the "Single Encounter Tank".

Now I am not talking raids here. I am talking solo and grouping. I grouped with an SK in SoS who was easily pulling entire rooms at a time. Point is if this "nerf" means we have to pull one less encounter, then I don't think we are that bad off.

Not to mention a lot of you have been bitching about all the noobs jumping on the SK band wagon. Maybe this "nerf" will drive them off.

Xryce

Khatiru · 02-21-2009, 02:37 PM

Copy and pasted from another forum again cuz i am too lazy....

============================================

Personally I would like an itemized list of all the nerfs SKs are looking at on Test right now, I know some:
1. TSO AA of 25% base weapon damage being nerfed to 15%
2. AE damage nerf
*Note that these first 2 are going to have a large impact on both offensive and defensive stance*
3. WHILE tanking -.5 mod to auto attack damage, -10% base spell damage, loss of self proc buff, -skills
4. WHILE offensive, loss of taunts, 10% more damage taken
5. Furor spell damage nerfed from 20% to 10%.

1b. Knight's Stance nerfed from 25% Weapon Damage bonus to 15%.
2b. High end spread on all AE abilities have been lowered. This includes: Sacrament, Doom, Circle, Aura, and Tap
5b. Furor gives 10% improved threat now in exchange for 10% spell damage. -- NO THANKS! Have you seen the excess amount of increased Hate/Threat we have with the changes? It's not only redundant, it's overkill.
Boot : Added Increased threat to target
Idolic Axe : Increases the base amt of Taunts by up to 9.6% and Increases Taunt crit chance by up to 17.6%
Defensive Pact : Increases Taunt amt of Defensive Stance by up to 25%
Enhance Chastisement II : Increases base Hate by up to 9%
Enhance Insinuate : Increases the base Hate amt by up to 6%
Valor in Battle: Improves triggered threat in stance by up to 25%
Not to mention Defensive stance now grants improved Threat in multiple components: Vengeful Feedback, Unholy Strike, and Increased Hate Gain by 8%
6. Change to Enhance Insinuate we lose lowering of resistability. 41% harder on Test vs 63% harder on Live.

================================================== ====

The numbers in Offensive stance:

Live Grave Sacrament M1, inflicts 2155-3123
Test Grave Sacrament M1, inflicts 1963-2350
25% reduction of high end damage


Live Doom Rays M1, inflicts 1634-2586
Test Doom Rays M1, inflicts 1576-1880
27% reduction of high end damage

Live Crimson Circle M1, inflicts 939-1416 + 343-419 every 6 seconds
Test Crimson Circle M1, inflicts 1020-1197 + 345-421 every 6 seconds
15% reduction of high end damage

Live Painful Aura M1, inflicts 949 + 498 every 4 seconds
Test Painful Aura M1, inflicts 886 + 501 every 4 seconds
6% reduction in damage

Live Tap Arteries M2, inflicts 2889, heals 1036
Test Tap Arteries M2 inflicts 2666, heals 1036
8% reduction in damage

Gwarbok · 02-22-2009, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khatiru

Copy and pasted from another forum again cuz i am too lazy....

============================================

Personally I would like an itemized list of all the nerfs SKs are looking at on Test right now, I know some:
1. TSO AA of 25% base weapon damage being nerfed to 15%
2. AE damage nerf
*Note that these first 2 are going to have a large impact on both offensive and defensive stance*
3. WHILE tanking -.5 mod to auto attack damage, -10% base spell damage, loss of self proc buff, -skills
4. WHILE offensive, loss of taunts, 10% more damage taken
5. Furor spell damage nerfed from 20% to 10%.

1b. Knight's Stance nerfed from 25% Weapon Damage bonus to 15%.
2b. High end spread on all AE abilities have been lowered. This includes: Sacrament, Doom, Circle, Aura, and Tap
5b. Furor gives 10% improved threat now in exchange for 10% spell damage. -- NO THANKS! Have you seen the excess amount of increased Hate/Threat we have with the changes? It's not only redundant, it's overkill.
Boot : Added Increased threat to target
Idolic Axe : Increases the base amt of Taunts by up to 9.6% and Increases Taunt crit chance by up to 17.6%
Defensive Pact : Increases Taunt amt of Defensive Stance by up to 25%
Enhance Chastisement II : Increases base Hate by up to 9%
Enhance Insinuate : Increases the base Hate amt by up to 6%
Valor in Battle: Improves triggered threat in stance by up to 25%
Not to mention Defensive stance now grants improved Threat in multiple components: Vengeful Feedback, Unholy Strike, and Increased Hate Gain by 8%
6. Change to Enhance Insinuate we lose lowering of resistability. 41% harder on Test vs 63% harder on Live.

================================================== ====

The numbers in Offensive stance:

Live Grave Sacrament M1, inflicts 2155-3123
Test Grave Sacrament M1, inflicts 1963-2350
25% reduction of high end damage


Live Doom Rays M1, inflicts 1634-2586
Test Doom Rays M1, inflicts 1576-1880
27% reduction of high end damage

Live Crimson Circle M1, inflicts 939-1416 + 343-419 every 6 seconds
Test Crimson Circle M1, inflicts 1020-1197 + 345-421 every 6 seconds
15% reduction of high end damage

Live Painful Aura M1, inflicts 949 + 498 every 4 seconds
Test Painful Aura M1, inflicts 886 + 501 every 4 seconds
6% reduction in damage

Live Tap Arteries M2, inflicts 2889, heals 1036
Test Tap Arteries M2 inflicts 2666, heals 1036
8% reduction in damage

I wonder if the OP understands any of that.

Xryce_AB · 02-22-2009, 10:03 AM

Interesting that the only two replies thus far only just repost what the nerf is and not actually answer my question...

Xryce

evilastro · 02-22-2009, 10:48 AM

To answer your question, no! You are an idiot. The amount of mobs a tank can safely pull is determined by survivability. Any tank even remotely well geared could grab half of SoS because its an old gimp zone. Guardians are just pissed cos easy mode got turned off and they had some serious competitors.

Now every tank gets to be a button mashing taunt monkey. Also the SK nerfs are way over the top and wont change the fact that they can still grab the whole fucking room easier than Guards. Will it make the zone any easier? Probably not, might save you a few seconds.

Most AoEs only hit 8 targets so grabbing more than that is just retarded anyway.

Considering that 95% of raid content is single target mobs, and 80% of significant fights in heroic zones are single target I dont see any massive advantage to being an AoE tank and paying for it with less defence than a Guard.

Xryce_AB · 02-22-2009, 03:10 PM

"The amount of mobs a tank can safely pull is determined by survivability." Then why are we so concerned with the amount of damage we can do? When I am soloing I pull multiple encounters not only because I will survive, but because I can clear areas quickly, thus complete quests faster and safer. I am doing things on my SK that my better equiped ranger could never do. Now don't get me wrong I love what I can do with the SK, but everyone has to see that it is a bit over the top right now.

Now... "Considering that 95% of raid content is single target mobs, and 80% of significant fights in heroic zones are single target I dont see any massive advantage to being an AoE tank and paying for it with less defence than a Guard." This is an issue that has pissed me off for a long time. When the game first came out the concept was all fighters could tank effectively, all priest could heal effectively, and dps was dps. The fact that guardians are always considered above all else for MT in raids is bull. It was supposed to be that all tanks could tank effectively in different ways. Well what the hell happened?

Oh wait... It looks like the new changes are an attempt to get back to to the core of the tank classes. Now whether they work or not will only come to light when the changes go live.

Xryce

evilastro · 02-22-2009, 06:54 PM

The bottom line is that people dont give a shit how much damage your main tank is doing as long as he is holding aggro and surviving.

The whingers just come out of the woodwork when a better geared and buffed tank is doing more dps than they are on groups and raids. Just because you are a tank doesnt mean you should automatically do less damage. An equally geared DPS class wont be beaten by even a SK on live, and thats the way it should be. Now Arselick wants to lower tank dps so that even shit dps players can feel good about themselves.

For raids guardians are still the prime choice because they have more survivability. This is overpowered in my oppinion. Since all other tanks are going to be doing gimp damage our defence should all be bolstered to match a guard. But they wont because SoE has chronic tunnel vision and a lack of perspective. So we might see changes 6 months down the track when they realise the only fighters left in the game are guardians.

Khatiru · 02-23-2009, 04:16 PM

The linky... Plate tank taunts

This is what it now means to be an ae tank....

Drumstix42 · 02-24-2009, 06:21 AM

An AOE tank means... have fun in group instances, but the SOE preferred tanks will take role in raids, until your gear is well enough that it doesn't matter...

I don't think multiple ENCOUNTER fights are ever intended. Considering you're hardly forced to ever fight more than 1 ENCOUNTER at a time. Some encounters just have more than 1 MOB, a lot of the time less ^'s than singles.

Honestly, all these changes show how poorly constructed this game really is.
This shit has been changed way too many times, and the back and forth just keeps on happening.

Quit fucking complaining about changes that make you work in the game. If this gets any easier, you might as well eat your $15 a month.

Chumann · 03-06-2009, 12:20 PM

I don't usually necro post, but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilastro

For raids guardians are still the prime choice because they have more survivability. This is overpowered in my oppinion. Since all other tanks are going to be doing gimp damage our defence should all be bolstered to match a guard. But they wont because SoE has chronic tunnel vision and a lack of perspective. So we might see changes 6 months down the track when they realise the only fighters left in the game are guardians.

How are guardians overpowered at this point? The fact of the matter is that on any encounter that either
a) has more than one mob or
b) isn't the big-dick mob of the zone
then a SK can just do it better atm. They have more utility, more dps, and are close to guards in survivability. Sure, maybe guardians have slightly more defense, but unless you're fighting end-game bosses, that extra avoidance/mit doesn't mean anything. If I avoid 70% of attacks and we kill it with relative ease, and you avoid 65% and kill it with relative ease then what's the fucking difference? Especially since as an SK, you're capable of adding more to the raid on the encounters you're tanking including raid wide dps.

After the LU, guardians are going to be suited for the premier end-game mobs (which btw doesn't mean we're the only option). Other than that, any "AoE" tank can do it arguably better. To dream that all tanks should tank equally well against every mob and every encounter in every situation is stupid. If that were the case, there'd be one tank class.

Quote:

Then why are we so concerned with the amount of damage we can do?

Because you can. Using the same argument above, if both tanks can tank a mob/encounter and both do it well, then why wouldn't you look for the tank that added something more? The easiest and most noticeable way to add more to the raid is dps which = mobs dying faster. That's why tanks are focused on dps because it's the perverbial "final frontier". If you can tank well and dps well at the same time, then you're a multi-tool tank adding to every facet of every encounter.