Darkarrow

Well, well, well.....and so the name Fidelis appears on EQ2flames. Did not expect in this context but hey, the ways of the (Over)lord are many....

I don't want to get into a dispute with anyone as the initial point of discussion was about something completly different, but as the name of my guild has been mentioned, i feel obliged to add a few comments that were not quite correct.

First of all, Fidelis does not consist of people that "raid less often" . Afaik we raid more than Sod does atm and to make things clear, the split did not happen because of raiding itself but because of how some ppl were feeling about the way the "progression" was implemented. When one does put anything above loyalty and dedication then clashes are about to happen, so it was for the best.
Not sure why ppl live with the impression that Fidelis is some fluff guild with the "sheep" from dawnsong. Those that raided with us in the last weeks can apreciate themself how we raid and how they felt on our raids.
And i don't remember any raid that we have hosted which had less than 24 members.
And one thing i know. When you see guilds colaps like a deck of cards, due to AoC or other reasons, guilds that had no "real" reason do die apart from disinterest from it's members in the guild entity itself, then I can be quite happy of the ppl that are in Fidelis.

As for the initial topic - aliances - well, i have never been a huge fan of them as they have a basic flaw : in any aliance, there is always one of the guilds who will have the pants on and who will dictate who will come, what target gets hit just to name a few. I won't even go to the touchy topic of overflows etc.
Tbh i have never seen aliances that have survived much time and they always broke up because of difference of opinions regarding who has the command stick in his/her hand. To think that ppl will be equal etc etc...is just as utopic as to beleive in comunism... :P We are all equal, but some are more equal than others, just to quote someone

I truly hope you will all find a way in which you will get your raids filled and keep progressing. From my point of view I rather rely on my friends list than on official aliances if we need to fill the raids.
And surprisingly that list has grown quite a bit in the last weeks

Darkarrow, Lamb of Fidelis

Tuna

Oh, in fact I think we agree. I should have elaborated further.

You mentioned that there was always a difference between the overly casual side of SoD and the bit more hardcore minded side of SoD. I totally agree with that.
A split between these 2 would have been a decent idea I guess.

But that's not what happened. You should realize this.

What happened was that one clique totally overestimated their own skill as players (while having a low attendance).
Aerin told us here that some left to raid less. That's not the case.

The split was not about "Quality <-> Casual".
SoD has treated some of their most loyal members like shit which in turn made some of SoD's best and most dedicated (in terms of attendance) players leave.
Do you honestly think that the Forlorn Hope people in SoD is a bunch of uber players? I recall a story of one shitty healer demanding to be in mt group over Deneb cause he "deserved" it, haha.
Some of those that left (not only to Fidelis) were much better players than those.

What's left? Wannabe-elitist players like Aerin who think they're great players but whose attendance has always sucked (for whatever valid reasons. I'm not here to judge those.).

People like GP on the other hand decided to leave.

Again: What happened was not SoD splitting into a casual and a semi-hardcore part. That's a misconception.

What happened was Aerin not caring about the fundamental charter of SoD. In the process he lost casual AND more serious players.

That's my point.
It's about HOW you run a guild and how the guildies are treated. Fidelis isn't more or less casual/hardcore than SoD is.

If the split was different you'd be right, Zorm. But this was a split across all playstyles and had nothing to do with being more hardcore or taking raiding more seriously.
It was about decency.

It wasn't a case of the casuals leaving and the serious raiders staying. I'm sure SoD would love to have some of the dedicated and skilled players Fidelis has now. The names GP and Deneb ring a bell?

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Zormik

Darkarrow,

No offense, but with your approach to raiding in general you'll never make a serious leap forward towards raiding. It already was an issue back in the days i was still in sod and the reason you had a huge turnover from people that actually really wanted to progress with raiding. A lot of people struggled with that approach and got frustrated by it, some were vocal about it, some others not and either decided to move on or just ride it out in silence. For others your approach was the most favoured one, it's a noble approach but not realistic in terms of actually achieving progress (there were pickupraids who did better, hence the frustration of many) but from the point of view of community and holding a community together it's a nice way to go.

Now the other approach is a bit more hardlined but sometimes needed to actually make a step forward. It isn't a popular approach in a casual family guild but if you claim to be a raiding guild well, that's the price of it. And that's how many casual raiding guilds actually work and have success.

So what actually happened was those 2 approaches coliding and with the added drama it caused a split of the guild.

Anyways i'm not here to judge either approach cause they both have valid points and i hope you prove me wrong and get somewhere with the raiding in fidelis.

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Tuna

No, Zorm.
Hardcorish AND casual players left SoD because the leadership was acting like a bunch of elitist twats.

I totally agree with you that DA's old raiding style was flawed (even DA himself agrees with that now, haha). But the split had nothing to do with that.

Zorm, you want to interpret the split like that cause the hardcore<->casual debate was huge when we both left SoD. But these events had nothing to do with that.

I've followed it very closely. :p

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Zormik

And the core of the problem (imo) is still what i pointed out. That in itself didn't create the split but the action <--> reaction can blow things pretty much out of proportion and can create heated situations which in itself can result in what happened.

And i'm sure this has happened in plenty of guilds. I still have to find the first dramafree guild on splitpaw

Oh, and i've been filled in by both parties

But i don't wanna add any extra drama, i'm too much of a carebear and i have too much respect for some of the guildies from both sides to do that

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Tuna

I'm surprised DA showed up here! He types way too slow to flame effectively. By the time he writes one of his novels the thread is dead.

*huggles DA*

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Darkarrow

Heh Zorm,

Just like in the good old days .
Uhm... I usualy avoid making statements that look like set in stone. But if you opened the can of worms, then let's see what is in it...

My "approach" looks like something evil and like i held back the guild from progressing. It's easy to point the finger at the one with the "aproach".
Did i try to do things to keep players dedicated to eachother ? Hell, yes ! Did our progression went slow ? Sure, but that is the "price" you pay.
Do I compare the guild with other guilds that "succeed" ? Hell, NO. It's like comparing apples with pears. They both fruit, but uhm....
To tag a player or a guild as good or bad by the way they raid is insulting to say the least. I know quite a few VERY good raiders who are moronic idiots and i would keep them at a 5 mile radius at all times. So pls, don't tag...

And please let's keep out the fluff term "casual-raiding guilds" out.
A guild is either a casual guild or a raiding guild.
Or do i have to remind you that on most "casual-raiding" guilds attendance is mandatory 3 times /week ?
That type of attendance makes them succeed faster without doubt, and i really have no issues with that, but i see no issues why ppl do not accept that they are in a raiding guild. Is casual in fashion once more ?

As to my bad "aproach", at least i don't tremble in my pants that a new MMORPG comes out and half of my guild buggers off.

To quote someone recently:

"WTB dedication..."

Tuna

Let's just not talk about that at all. The whole "casual/hardcore" discussion is stupid.
There's raiders with dedication, there's non-raiders with dedication. Raiders don't play more than non-raiders either.

Please, let's stick to the subject of flaming Aerin.
Playstyles and (successful) approaches to raiding didn't really matter there. SoD lost peeps of all playstyles due to treating some of their members like shit.

(BTW: I'm willing to bet on Fitz/Kelgrov showing up soon to insult me with his finest cusses.)

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Aerin

Hmm I have absolutely no idea how I became a target or why you have this extremely warped one sided view of me. I have 100% attendance and I have never, ever been afk during a raid. I have never considered myself in the slightest bit uber or elitist so I have no idea where you got that from either.

I'm down to Earth, want to kill stuff and was fed up with people being late, not turning up at all, not bringing or using potions etc, you know, the basics - so we put a bit of structure to it such as forum posts detailing what people should be bringing and what they should be aware of etc.. Nothing drastic unless you consider having a raider rank as ground breaking shit.

I have no interest in winning any ego competitions on here and just want to enjoy the game when I play it, same as you.

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Kurm

Well going back to the original post I'd like to thank everyone who's contacted us. There appears to be a couple of options for us and we're deciding what to do next.

Thanks folks .

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