+ to Pierce - Page 3

Rrawyx · 01-24-2008, 08:37 PM

I keep getting outbid on the nice raid 4s weapons and am stuck with carotid / nathsar / trank tooh / soulfire / arbiter of absolution.

Stick with what carotid / nathsar until I loot the dkp pieces ? Or match delays with the two 4s (trank tooth isn't too bad for legendary it seems)? We have no world wide channels on pvp server so I base most of my info from websites.

Camryn · 01-25-2008, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mendanbar

No, the more crits you have the higher MAX DAMAGE number you want. The low number doesn't mean shit, it's simply there to balance things and keep damage ratings at an average. This is why throatripper is > than betrayal as stated above, even though it was listed below it. The spread doesn't mean shit. With greater crits, throatripper will hit MUCH harder even though the "spread" is larger on betrayal.

And before you make the argument "well of course, the max damage" is better. To prove that it's pretty much the max damage alone, a weapon with the same max damage but a higher low end would still win out over one with a larger spread (ignoring any other factors or a player having permanent 110% crit - figuring in normalization vs level 87-88 mobs).

I'm sorry. But I think I am going to have to disagree with you.
2 weapons with the same damage rating, but one having a larger spread than the other, the larger spread will parse better the more crit you have.

Why?
First off, Look at how sony calculates damage rating so we can make examples of weapons with the exact DR and varying spread.

Sony Calculates DR by: (Min Damage + Max Damage) / Delay
(go ahead and just do that with the images posted on page 2 and you will see the numbers line up).

With that said. lets make up a few hypothetical weapons.
Lets give them a DR of 125 and delay of 4 to work with.

Weapon A: 125 - 375 (spread 3)
Weapon B: 100 - 400 (spread 4)
Weapon C: 71 - 429 (spread 6)

All 3 have the same DR.
And with zero crit rate. all would give the same DPS.
(with A having less ranging hits, and with C having more "extremes" on hits).

But once Crits are taken into account. the weapon with the higher spread pulls ahead.
Why? Because of the max damage + 1 rule.
With weapon A. anytime a hit crit is 288 or below. it gets bumped to max+1
Weapon B: its 307 or below
Weapon C: its 330 or below.

With weapon A, there is about a 65% chance of getting bumped to max +1
With weapon B, there is about a 70% chance of gettng bumped.
With weapon C, there is about a 73% chance of getting bumped.

Each time the damage gets bumped to max+1 is a time when a crit is actually more then at 30% damage bonus. So the more often the damage bump occurs, the more bonus damage the weapon recieves, and therefore the more overall damage the weapon does... All else being equal.

So, with all else being equal, the weapon with a better spread will do more damage, with the difference becoming more drastic the higher your crit rate goes.

Pinski · 01-25-2008, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mendanbar

Except that I said everything else equal.

A 100-360 weapon will beat a 50-360 weapon every time with the same delay/stats/etc, unless the player has enough crit to literally get 100% crit chances and over come any normalization of crit versus higher level mobs. And even then, that just ties it.

Which in the end means - the spread is irrelevant, it is the max damage. The spread is just a dev mean to keep the damage ratings in check - and why the damage rating is usually the most even thing between most weapons from the same "quality" of mob.

Actually, even with 100% crit chances the 100-360 weapon is superior to the 50-360 weapon.

50-360
Your average Crit will be 375.203 damage.
With a 100% Crit Chance, you will do (375.203, 93.8009 DPS){4s}

100-360
Your average Crit will be 377.935 damage.
With a 100% Crit Chance, you will do (377.935, 94.4837 DPS){4s}

Thus, the spread DOES matter. Smaller spread will give you more DPS if they both have the same max damage.

Krontak · 01-25-2008, 05:46 PM

I guess I misunderstood how auto attack mele crits were calculated then. CA's follow a straight damage * 30% increase per crit. I was under the assumption that the spread determined the multiplier, so for instance with 100% mele crits you'd get:

50-360 is a 1:7.2 spread giving an additional .83 bonus to max damage.
multiplier = (crit rate * bonus)
1 * .83 = .83
Damage woudl be MAX DAM +1 * (multiplier)

361 * 1.83 = 660.63

100-360 is a 1:3.6 spread giving an additonal .64 bonus to max damage.

361 * 1.64 = 592.04

I always thought this spread factor was why the Vrasakin club was the weapon of all weapons for shammy's with the 100% crit thingy.

guess I need to scrap all that heh..thanks pinske

Symbolic · 01-25-2008, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camryn

I'm sorry. But I think I am going to have to disagree with you.
2 weapons with the same damage rating, but one having a larger spread than the other, the larger spread will parse better the more crit you have.

Why?
First off, Look at how sony calculates damage rating so we can make examples of weapons with the exact DR and varying spread.

Sony Calculates DR by: (Min Damage + Max Damage) / Delay
(go ahead and just do that with the images posted on page 2 and you will see the numbers line up).

With that said. lets make up a few hypothetical weapons.
Lets give them a DR of 125 and delay of 4 to work with.

Weapon A: 125 - 375 (spread 3)
Weapon B: 100 - 400 (spread 4)
Weapon C: 71 - 429 (spread 6)

All 3 have the same DR.
And with zero crit rate. all would give the same DPS.
(with A having less ranging hits, and with C having more "extremes" on hits).

But once Crits are taken into account. the weapon with the higher spread pulls ahead.
Why? Because of the max damage + 1 rule.
With weapon A. anytime a hit crit is 288 or below. it gets bumped to max+1
Weapon B: its 307 or below
Weapon C: its 330 or below.

With weapon A, there is about a 65% chance of getting bumped to max +1
With weapon B, there is about a 70% chance of gettng bumped.
With weapon C, there is about a 73% chance of getting bumped.

Each time the damage gets bumped to max+1 is a time when a crit is actually more then at 30% damage bonus. So the more often the damage bump occurs, the more bonus damage the weapon recieves, and therefore the more overall damage the weapon does... All else being equal.

So, with all else being equal, the weapon with a better spread will do more damage, with the difference becoming more drastic the higher your crit rate goes.

GAH did you bother not reading my post? Mendenbar is correct, you just aren't reading what he's saying correctly.

If 2 weapons have the same DR, the one with the higher max dmg will ALSO have the lower min dmg, so hence the higher spread. So it doesn't matter how you look at it with weapons with the same DR/DLY (Max Dmg or Spread)

Symbolic · 01-25-2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinski

Actually, even with 100% crit chances the 100-360 weapon is superior to the 50-360 weapon.

50-360
Your average Crit will be 375.203 damage.
With a 100% Crit Chance, you will do (375.203, 93.8009 DPS){4s}

100-360
Your average Crit will be 377.935 damage.
With a 100% Crit Chance, you will do (377.935, 94.4837 DPS){4s}

Thus, the spread DOES matter. Smaller spread will give you more DPS if they both have the same max damage.

Yeah, he didn't think it through, the rest of what he's saying is correct. The only reason the smaller spread is better there is because the DR will also be better. (I'm basically repeating what you said about the same max dmg, but just wanted people to see another way to look at it)

Mendanbar · 01-25-2008, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camryn

I'm sorry. But I think I am going to have to disagree with you.
2 weapons with the same damage rating, but one having a larger spread than the other, the larger spread will parse better the more crit you have.

Why?
First off, Look at how sony calculates damage rating so we can make examples of weapons with the exact DR and varying spread.

Sony Calculates DR by: (Min Damage + Max Damage) / Delay
(go ahead and just do that with the images posted on page 2 and you will see the numbers line up).

With that said. lets make up a few hypothetical weapons.
Lets give them a DR of 125 and delay of 4 to work with.

Weapon A: 125 - 375 (spread 3)
Weapon B: 100 - 400 (spread 4)
Weapon C: 71 - 429 (spread 6)

All 3 have the same DR.
And with zero crit rate. all would give the same DPS.
(with A having less ranging hits, and with C having more "extremes" on hits).

But once Crits are taken into account. the weapon with the higher spread pulls ahead.
Why? Because of the max damage + 1 rule.
With weapon A. anytime a hit crit is 288 or below. it gets bumped to max+1
Weapon B: its 307 or below
Weapon C: its 330 or below.

With weapon A, there is about a 65% chance of getting bumped to max +1
With weapon B, there is about a 70% chance of gettng bumped.
With weapon C, there is about a 73% chance of getting bumped.

Each time the damage gets bumped to max+1 is a time when a crit is actually more then at 30% damage bonus. So the more often the damage bump occurs, the more bonus damage the weapon recieves, and therefore the more overall damage the weapon does... All else being equal.

So, with all else being equal, the weapon with a better spread will do more damage, with the difference becoming more drastic the higher your crit rate goes.

I didn't say a single thing about same damage rating, my point was that the spread itself isn't the mitigating factor. It is the max damage, first and foremost, but then that you would get additional benefit with a SMALLER spread. Would a high max dam and a smaller spread cause a higher damage rating than the other weapon? Yes.

The original post up above compared STRICTLY damage spreads to rate the weapons which is why I shot it down. The spread is irrelevant, in some of the cases, weapons with both lower max and min damages (and the same delay) were rated above higher max dam and higher min damage weapons, simply because the distance between the two numbers (the spread) was greater. That is a WHOLLY faulty method of judging weapons.

<edit>: At least I assume the spread was his method for comparing the final few weapons, because I have no earthly idea why he'd place throatripper under some of the others otherwise. </edit>

Back to the main point. When you have two weapons with the same damage rating, will the weapon with the larger spread win out in DPS? Yes, but it is NOT because of the spread. The spread is the balancing casualty of keeping DR's balanced. It is the max damage that is doing all the work to make the weapon better.