A few swashi questions

Cynnigig · 03-28-2008, 10:47 AM

I have a few questions concerning swashbucklers, which I haven't found conclusively answered browsing the forums. As a raidleader I am trying to come to terms with the classes capabilities.

Do swashis generate more hate per point of damage than other classes? Our swashi is convinced of this fact, if so, then that would mean, that for example an assassin or brigand would generate 1000 hate for 1000 damage, but the swashi on the other hand would generate more than 1000 hate for 1000 damage. I have never seen such mechanics discussed, but I haven't read everything.

What I do wonder about though, is that when our swashi is in a dps group (typically consisting of inqui/fury, trouba, illu, mage, mage, scout), he has to put his hate transfer buff on the trouba, in order not to pull aggro himself - even though his dps is only around 3k (because he is skilled in poisons and debuffs, as I understand). If our assassin takes the scout spot, he has no aggro problems at all, doing +5k dps at times. This I find quite strange. Where does all that excess hate come from? The debuffs?

Strangely, if the same swashi is put into the MT group, he cannot transfer enough hate to the tank (guardian) and pulls aggro himself. I am a bit perplex. I can actually only put him in the OT group, where he has no problems transfering hate to the berserker. Since the berserker recently betrayed to guardian, this leaves me little room to place the swashi anywhere in the raid.

My third question is regarding the spell Hideaway. According to our swashi Hideaway transfers hate to the tank, which I cannot find in the spell description. He claims that at times Hideaway fails, since the tank is at the hate cap. Our brigands have never complained of Hideaway failing. Under what conditions can Hideaway fail? Does it work differently with brigands than with swashbucklers? I can't imagine so.

Can a swashi use the Avoid Notice line, when in a solely dps position? By how much does it lower hate? Does Spurious Bravado do so much for a swashis dps, that you have to use it, even though it generates hate for you?

Thundolfe · 03-28-2008, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynnigig

My third question is regarding the spell Hideaway. According to our swashi Hideaway transfers hate to the tank, which I cannot find in the spell description. He claims that at times Hideaway fails, since the tank is at the hate cap. Our brigands have never complained of Hideaway failing. Under what conditions can Hideaway fail? Does it work differently with brigands than with swashbucklers? I can't imagine so.

This whole thing seems bollocks to me. I have never read about Hideaway transferring hate to the tank. Hideaway drops YOUR (meaning the swash) hate position down the ladder by one. If the tank isn't next in line then of course he will not be targeted by the mob.

On the rest, i'll refrain from saying that your swash is out of his mind and sucks, because I am not currently raiding VP, but up through T3 I have had zero problems transferring hate or keeping aggro off me (as has always been the case really in T7 as well). The only time I have pulled aggro by accident is when I blow all temp buffs just a bit too early and burst.

Nihlathak · 03-28-2008, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynnigig

I have a few questions concerning swashbucklers, which I haven't found conclusively answered browsing the forums. As a raidleader I am trying to come to terms with the classes capabilities.

Do swashis generate more hate per point of damage than other classes? Our swashi is convinced of this fact, if so, then that would mean, that for example an assassin or brigand would generate 1000 hate for 1000 damage, but the swashi on the other hand would generate more than 1000 hate for 1000 damage. I have never seen such mechanics discussed, but I haven't read everything.

Swashbucklers only generate a higher % hate when under the effects of Spurious Bravado AFAIK, and even then the effect is minimal

What I do wonder about though, is that when our swashi is in a dps group (typically consisting of inqui/fury, trouba, illu, mage, mage, scout), he has to put his hate transfer buff on the trouba, in order not to pull aggro himself - even though his dps is only around 3k (because he is skilled in poisons and debuffs, as I understand). If our assassin takes the scout spot, he has no aggro problems at all, doing +5k dps at times. This I find quite strange. Where does all that excess hate come from? The debuffs?

I would wager that the extra hate comes from your swashbuckler being a retard about his aggro and not using Hideaway, racial detaunts, evade, and detaunt poisons. The only time I ever pull aggro is if I'm dropping 4k DPS in the first few seconds of an encounter. Also, don't assassin's ALSO get a hate transfer spell?

Strangely, if the same swashi is put into the MT group, he cannot transfer enough hate to the tank (guardian) and pulls aggro himself. I am a bit perplex. I can actually only put him in the OT group, where he has no problems transfering hate to the berserker. Since the berserker recently betrayed to guardian, this leaves me little room to place the swashi anywhere in the raid.

I don't really know what to say about a MT swashy pulling aggro. Either A) Your tank is bad or B) Your swashbuckler is a total retard. I am usually a MT swashbuckler and I love the job specifically because I can hurricane and full burn ANY sized encounter and almost never pull aggro.

My third question is regarding the spell Hideaway. According to our swashi Hideaway transfers hate to the tank, which I cannot find in the spell description. He claims that at times Hideaway fails, since the tank is at the hate cap. Our brigands have never complained of Hideaway failing. Under what conditions can Hideaway fail? Does it work differently with brigands than with swashbucklers? I can't imagine so.

This is absolute garbage. Hideaway is a large detaunt (1.8kish I think, I'm not logged in to check) and it drops the caster by 1 hate position. It does not give aggro to anyone else, but if the swashbuckler steals aggro from the tank, it will immediately drop him back down under the tank.

Sleight of Hand, on the other hand.. well I dunno what the fuck it does it's been fucked with so much, I don't use it. Hate swap and detaunt or something like that. Someone else can probably explain properly.

Can a swashi use the Avoid Notice line, when in a solely dps position? By how much does it lower hate? Does Spurious Bravado do so much for a swashis dps, that you have to use it, even though it generates hate for you?

This is probably a question for someone else to answer. Being on a PVP server I can't really tell you what is acceptable raid speccing for a purely PVE environment. Spurious Bravado isn't worth turning off, it's gain is hardly noticeable.

So let me just sum up what I think about your situation like so:

1. Your swash shouldn't be pulling aggro off your tank. Like I said before, it's either the tank or the swash. Well you said your assassin does 5k and doesn't pull aggro... so I'm willing to blame your Swash. Here's some stuff you can make sure he does to help with aggro:

Ensure that he is running the most current version and highest available quality of the Avoid Notice spell. Make sure that he is always running Mastercrafted Ignorant Bliss poison. Make sure he's using Adept 3 or better of the current level Evade spell and make sure he's using it all the time. Same for Hideaway.

2. If you must, I suggest forcing him to spec in a manner that gimps his DPS potential until he's able to properly control his aggro, because believe me there is no reason he should be pulling it with 3k DPS(I mean for cristsakes, that doesn't even sound that HIGH! I'm on a PVP server and do 3k-4k with only half the classes in the raid to buff and debuff), that absolutely boggles me. Make him spec down the INT line for a few raids and he'll probably want to figure out how he can keep a good spec and still keep aggro off him.

EDIT: Just to say I hope any of that helps you and if not I hope someone else can provide something more insightful. It's not often I see raid leaders going around collecting information to better their raid performance down to single characters like this. Of course, I think the swashbuckler should have been responsible for the research himself...

master_kaos · 03-28-2008, 11:34 AM

There is absolutly no reason as a swashy to pull hate on a fight unless MT goes down (and unless you are in MT group, you still shouldn't be in #2 position)

60% of the time im in OT group, 30% time in melee dps group, and 10% in MT group (depends on what classes we have, and what mob we are doing) and I could count on 1 hand how many times I have pulled aggro from the tank where the tank is still alive and the mob hasn't done a memwipe.

I don't even use the deaggro poisons. I mainly use enfeebling, turgur and caustic.
Depending on group setup, I usually do 3-4.5k dps ZW

Thundolfe · 03-28-2008, 12:36 PM

I also use caustic-enfeeb-turgur, and my current rogue AAs are STR44681 AGI46481 STA448 INT5. And the hate % on Spurious is 5% by the way, its not noticeable.

I also am primarily an MT swash and my tank loves me. Either your tank or swash (or both) are doing something wrong.

Dixxy · 03-28-2008, 02:40 PM

Your swashbuckler is doing something seriously messed up, I can be doing 4-5k dps with no hate transfer and still not pull agro without using evade. I don't have to worry about agro at all anymore ever since late KoS/Early EoF.
Unless of course, the tank sucks donkey balls. But even then, I have to almost be TRYING to pull agro to get it.

serum321 · 03-28-2008, 04:01 PM

One problem could be putting him in the caster group.....not sure what the point of that is. Secondly your mt might already be at his hate transfer cap before the swashy puts his hate transfer on which is why he's ok in the ot group only.

Like people are saying as a swashy we should be able to go all out and never get aggro even without using evade. Its all about group setup.

Leithe · 03-28-2008, 05:37 PM

I miss being MT swashbuckler. Now I am depressed

Cynnigig · 03-28-2008, 06:15 PM

Well, the MT normally doesn't have any problems holding aggro. This is with coercer and dirge in the MT group. It goes bad, when we exchange the coercer for the swashi. I would find it strange, if the tank were at the hate cap with dirge and swashi alone.

We have a second swashi, so sometimes one of them winds up in a dd group.

serum321 · 03-28-2008, 06:58 PM

Then either your mt is doing something wrong or your dirge doesn't have his hate song up, there is almost no way a swashy can take aggro in a mt group unless they are purposefully trying to do so by doing things like pre casting temp buffs and trying to burn too fast or taunting.