Important Shield Ally Information - Page 8

mafoe · 04-25-2008, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

erm.. who said I was picking anything for stats above all else? But food/drink with +stats vs. food/drink with no stats, same regen & other benefits, no difference in cost... ? It's a no-brainer mate. Every little helps, and if it doesn't, what exactly have I lost? Maybe if you stopped thinking with your genitals you would see that?

..and yes, I have all the adorns I should thanks

I was answering to pagan, not you, obviously.

I am tired of explaining myself, but here goes..... if you spend the money on +STA adornments that gives a negligable amount of +health (which each of us does anyway, I reckon), then you can just as well go and pick the dodge stuff with stats over the parry stuff with no stats. it seems commonly accepted that 2.2% dodge is equivalent to 2.2% parry.

Now pls each and every one of you motherfucking fuckfuckers learn to read before I call ur moms, kthxbai.

Phrozen · 04-25-2008, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pagansaint

Interestingly enough we did this when the Supple Dogwood Staff was Disco'd and dodge% was found to not work at all.

Times change and I was wrong.

Oh well, my original point still stands though, if you're basing your item choices off of stats, you're a moron.

% Dodge has always worked with Shield Ally.

Tyla · 04-25-2008, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pagansaint

I seem to have struck a nerve, you really do(or should I say did now?) choose equipment based off of stats don't you.

If you want to try and have a reasonable and helpful discussion then you should be wondering why there is a large difference in how much avoidance each type gives percentage wise of its listed effectiveness between the two.

The only chord you have struck my diminutive little friend, is the one that says never argue with an idiot. They will only try to drag you down their own level and then beat you with experience.

You're obviously not going to accept that you were wrong about my choosing gear for stats over anything else, so I am not going to try and help you to understand again. You walked in here & made a tit of yourself. Myself and everyone else who has read this thread knows it so, whatever.

hearth · 04-25-2008, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pagansaint

You're actually concerned about +stats? Really?

Club yourself in the genitals and save future generations if you actually even look at +stats anymore to see what gear you should wear.

Sure, I look at agi.

Edit: Here is the description on Shield ally.

Rank 8

Grants the Protector a chance to shield an ally from melee attacks, by allowing the target a chance to use the Protector’s avoidance check after their own avoidance check.

Target Group Friend
Casting 1.0 seconds
Recast 10.0 seconds
Duration Until Cancelled
Range Up to 20.0 meters

Effects:

* Grants target a 60% (see table, below) chance of making an additional attempt to avoid being hit by a melee attack using the caster’s avoidance

Snark · 04-25-2008, 02:16 PM

I hope thats sarcasm!

Kizee · 04-25-2008, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hearth

Sure, I look at agi.

Edit: Here is the description on Shield ally.

Rank 8

Grants the Protector a chance to shield an ally from melee attacks, by allowing the target a chance to use the Protector’s avoidance check after their own avoidance check.

Target Group Friend
Casting 1.0 seconds
Recast 10.0 seconds
Duration Until Cancelled
Range Up to 20.0 meters

Effects:

* Grants target a 60% (see table, below) chance of making an additional attempt to avoid being hit by a melee attack using the caster’s avoidance

Yeah we all know what SoE writes in description is how it actually works.

EQAditu · 04-25-2008, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pagansaint

For normal reasoning, being the SoE dev's are clear as mud on the subject of avoidance, it wouldn't matter in what order you apply the differing avoidances. Sources of uncontested avoidance, armor/jewelry/AAs seem to be all applied seperately, as in not all parry% items are added up and then factored in, but each source individually is factored in to see if there is a hit or not.

Applying avoidance% sources in this manner actually gets you much closer to what the avoidance reports list as the actual avoidance, applying them in different orders, block first then parry, or parry first then block, etc etc makes no difference mathematically but there seems to be a definite weighting of importance to the avoidance types in how the game actually calculates your real avoidance.

From everything I have been able to find, and discussions in the past about this, it seems that the order of importance the game gives avoidance is Block then Deflection then Parry/Riposte then Dodge(base). That avoidance report and the differences between the actual effectiveness, percent wise of the listed effectiveness, between dodge and parry lends additional credence to this idea(not a large enough test set to be definitive).

I just wish there was a way to know for sure what kind of actual avoidance, or weighting each type gives.

I think we can only take things at face value here. I do not believe that a 2.2% parry is greater or less than a 2.2% dodge in practice. The only reason one may appear better than the other is the order in which they are applied, but mathematically, they are equal. Take two 90% uncontested avoidances... one will happen most of the time, one will happen almost none of the time, but they are still equal avoidance if only their check order was reversed.

It's hard to completely understand your wording, but are you trying to suggest otherwise? That an uncontested value of something may be better than another type?

Pinski · 04-25-2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EQAditu

I think we can only take things at face value here. I do not believe that a 2.2% parry is greater or less than a 2.2% dodge in practice. The only reason one may appear better than the other is the order in which they are applied, but mathematically, they are equal. Take two 90% uncontested avoidances... one will happen most of the time, one will happen almost none of the time, but they are still equal avoidance if only their check order was reversed.

It's hard to completely understand your wording, but are you trying to suggest otherwise? That an uncontested value of something may be better than another type?

Of course! People don't seem to understand if you have 90% uncontested parry, and 90% uncontested dodge, and you put them together, just because you get 90% of attacks parried and only 9% of attacks dodged, doesn't mean that parry is 10x as powerful as dodge, because if you had 90% dodge applied first, you'd have dodge being 10x as powerful as parry!

People don't seem to understand this.

It doesn't matter when the check is done, so long as the check is done.

Here, 2.2% parry and 2.2% dodge vs. 4.4% parry or dodge. 97.8% attacks get through parry, and 95.6% attacks go through dodge, giving you 2.2% of attacks parried, and only 2.2% of attacks dodged! Uh oh, what's that, they're EQUAL?

pagansaint · 04-25-2008, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EQAditu

It's hard to completely understand your wording, but are you trying to suggest otherwise? That an uncontested value of something may be better than another type?

What I'm suggesting is that, like my first line of what you quoted says, to normal reasoning it would not matter in what order the avoidance values were applied, it would all come out to be equal as if applied in a different order.

But... Situations come up like what that pic of an avoidance report shows, a large discrepancy in how much of each type of avoidance appears to be effective due to order of application.

The point I was trying to convey was if all of the separate sources of uncontested avoidance were added together then applied or applied all separately. There is a fairly significant difference between the results of the two methods.

Personally I am leaning towards all sources are separately applied, the same way the same type of proc is applied separately instead of adding them all together into one huge proc chance effect. This is partly from like the example I just used and partly from the fact that the avoidance% pieces do not modify your actual skill but instead give a defined rate of avoidance per that pieces effect.

Then there is the track record of unintuitive wording and workings of the mechanics of this game.

EQAditu · 04-25-2008, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pagansaint

...
But... Situations come up like what that pic of an avoidance report shows, a large discrepancy in how much of each type of avoidance appears to be effective due to order of application.
...

I expect this is because most people that are serious about Shield Ally would be using parry% adornments. So even if you had 4.4% dodge through provisions, you still have 6% parry through adornments. Dodge should never win. Unless you throw something else in like one of the dodge weapons.