Is using Drachnid illusion to harvest without aggro from drachnids an exploit? - Page 2

Pinski · 11-21-2007, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sotan

It never ceases to amaze me how little some people think about their words before they cast them into the aether, though. Something is an exploit solely because dev is nerfing it? Wow. That's a pretty wide net you're casting there.

That's the definition of an exploit. An unintended game mechanic that generally gets "fixed" or changed in the near future. Now on what scale is that exploit an exploit is a whole other issue. Whether it is a bannable offense, or whatever, is very dependent on what the exploit is.

Talonis · 11-21-2007, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sotan

Intended usage? No.

Intended functionality? Yes.

Exploit? No.

Unethical? Why?

There's currently a fairly heated thread on the official forums about this, and I'm one of the people who have pretty strong opinions. It's not that I would cry if they changed the illusion to break on harvesting. It's convenient, but that's about it; there are plenty of other places to harvest with little or no risk.

The main source of my ire is that I have little tolerance for people who self-righteously denounce as an exploit any kind of tactic or strategy that they don't happen to like. It pisses me off regardless of whether or not I have a dog in the fight.

First of all, you need to separate intended usage from intended functionality. They are not the same thing.

The item is functioning 100% as intended, based on the description of the item. It specifically cancels the illusion if you receive hostile action or cast any spell. It works only in this specific area. It lasts for one hour. All of these things are in the description, and all of them work as intended.

The intended usage is another matter. I think it's probably self-evident that dev did not intend for a player to choose not to complete the quest, instead keeping the item and using it to harvest. This, in and of itself, does not make it an exploit. Players have come up with all manner of creative ways of using items and abilities that give them an advantage, methods which were not the intended usage of an ability which is nevertheless functioning exactly as designed.

Fae glide is a perfect example. There are any number of places in the old world where fae glide will bypass gated areas and aggro mobs, or allow you to access geometry that a pre-EoF character cannot. This can be a huge advantage in PVP. Even in post-EoF areas, glide allows you to do a lot of things that could not have possibly been intended by dev, due to the advantage they give in completing a quest or bypassing deliberately-placed dangerous mobs.

Another example is Surveil. Before it was nerfed, Surveil was an uber pulling ability. Dev clearly did not intend it to be able to accomplish all the things it did. We know this because they nerfed it. Was it overpowered? Absolutely. Was it an exploit? No.

Or what about people who suicide in order to shave time off their Jboots runs? Coercers who abuse the sick damage output of corpse candles/flames? People who mentor down to lowbie friends/alts in order to farm low-level named?

The fact that a given usage is not intended by dev does not make it an exploit.

The fact that you do not like it does not make it an exploit.

The fact that something gives a player an advantage over others does not make it an exploit.

If a dev states that this is not an acceptable usage of this item and that they will fix it, I will stop using it this way, regardless of whether or not they actually fix it. I could use the AA exp, but right now the convenience of the illusion outweighs the minimal exp from one quest.

This isn't some clearly broken item or feature, where the bright line is obvious. This is an item that is working exactly as the description states it should, that is being used creatively by some people. Until a dev comes out and says that this is an exploit, people who claim the authority to know that it is are talking out of their ass and mistaking their opinions for fact.

Take your idiocy back to the official forums. Your examples suck badly. Fae fall was so overpowered Fae Cloaks were installed on 3rd floor EH trash, dropped like raindrops in the Amazon, and it was given to other non-Fae as traits (Hiya Hover). Surveil? Oh yeah, that was changed because it was not working as intended. Illusions have been ingame since launch and have not previously granted such an advantage as risk-free harvesting. This is an exploit and will be changed.

Stop your drivel of trying to justify why this is even remotely intended. Just because something works, does not mean it was intended that way ~especially~ in EQ2. What, are you new? It was a minor oversight by the person that designed the quest item. Harvesting should break the illusion or just remove the nodes from the cave. No free rides for gimp exploiting fucks like Sotan.

Sotan · 11-21-2007, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinski

That's the definition of an exploit. An unintended game mechanic that generally gets "fixed" or changed in the near future. Now on what scale is that exploit an exploit is a whole other issue. Whether it is a bannable offense, or whatever, is very dependent on what the exploit is.

That's /your/ definition of an exploit. Read through the list of "unintended game mechanic" examples I gave in my first post on this thread. Are they exploits?

If you want to condemn as exploiters anyone who uses any game mechanic in a way other than that which the devs originally intended or envisioned, you're generalizing the definition of the word to the point where it has no meaning anymore. Because most of us do it every day. It's just that we usually call it "devising a strategy" or "figuring out a cool new use for this" or even "using our brains".

Pinski · 11-21-2007, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sotan

That's /your/ definition of an exploit. Read through the list of "unintended game mechanic" examples I gave in my first post on this thread. Are they exploits?

If you want to condemn as exploiters anyone who uses any game mechanic in a way other than that which the devs originally intended or envisioned, you're generalizing the definition of the word to the point where it has no meaning anymore. Because most of us do it every day. It's just that we usually call it "devising a strategy" or "figuring out a cool new use for this" or even "using our brains".

Yes, they are exploits. If it's not intended it is an exploit, period. Whether how big or large completely depends on what the exploit is. Of course since you aren't reading what I wrote where I put that. I guess I shouldn't bother reading what you posted anymore either.

What you call Exploit I call Action-required(including a rollback, suspension, or ban) Exploit.

LFG · 11-21-2007, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sotan

Domino has stated that it's going to be removed in an upcoming hotfix.

Man, going from Beghn to Domino was like upgrading from a Pinto to a Porsche. It's like opposite ends of the clue and quality spectrum.

<3 Domino.

Sotan · 11-21-2007, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talonis

Take your idiocy back to the official forums. Your examples suck badly. Fae fall was so overpowered Fae Cloaks were installed on 3rd floor EH trash, dropped like raindrops in the Amazon, and it was given to other non-Fae as traits (Hiya Hover).

If you're going to call someone an idiot, don't post something retarded while doing so. Devs considered Fae Fall so overpowered that they... gave it to everyone? Using it to bypass game content was such an exploit that they... gave it to more people? Did these words pass through your brain on their way from your ass to your computer?

Quote:

Surveil? Oh yeah, that was changed because it was not working as intended.

Yeah, and there was great wailing and gnashing of teeth on the ranger forums about yet another nerf, not about fixing an exploit. Remind me again how many people were banned for Surveil pulls?

Quote:

Illusions have been ingame since launch and have not previously granted such an advantage as risk-free harvesting.

I have a large number of Qeynos toons with Dark Elf illusions who would beg to differ.

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Stop your drivel of trying to justify why this is even remotely intended. Just because something works, does not mean it was intended that way ~especially~ in EQ2. What, are you new? It was a minor oversight by the person that designed the quest item.

What are you, a fucking tard with no English comprehension? Learn to separate intended functionality from intended purpose.

The effect is working as designed. It's being used for a purpose other than one originally intended. Big whoop. So are countless other things in the game that nobody thinks of as exploits.

Quote:

Harvesting should break the illusion or just remove the nodes from the cave. No free rides for gimp exploiting fucks like Sotan.

Apparently you are, in fact, a tard with no English comprehension, because I said in the very first paragraph of what you quoted that there are plenty of places to harvest and I wouldn't cry if they changed it to prevent harvesting.

WTB smarter trolls.

Sotan · 11-21-2007, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinski

Yes, they are exploits. If it's not intended it is an exploit, period. Whether how big or large completely depends on what the exploit is.

Okay, thanks. Now that you've expanded the word "exploit" to include things like a fae gliding over magma in Lavastorm, I can safely stop taking you even remotely seriously on this subject.

LFG · 11-21-2007, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sotan

If you're going to call someone an idiot, don't post something retarded while doing so. Devs considered Fae Fall so overpowered that they... gave it to everyone?

That's pretty much my understanding of what happened. In fact, it went like this:

1. Race with wings was introduced.

2. A race with wings must fly, otherwise wtf are the wings for.

3. This racial trait was so over powered compared to other races, they had no choice but to either make it available to all races via equipment, or pluck the wings off the fairies.

Sotan · 11-21-2007, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LFG

That's pretty much my understanding of what happened. In fact, it went like this:

1. Race with wings was introduced.

2. A race with wings must fly, otherwise wtf are the wings for.

3. This racial trait was so over powered compared to other races, they had no choice but to either make it available to all races via equipment, or pluck the wings off the fairies.

All of which is true, but really doesn't have any bearing on my argument. My point is that fae fall allows people to bypass mobs, float over terrain impassable to toons without it, and access geometry other toons cannot. None of these things could, within any stretch of the imagination, be called "intended" by the developers--especially since most of the zones in which this occurs are pre-EoF zones, where the ability of a character to float was not considered in the design.

By Pinski's pointlessly expansive definition of "exploit", all of these things are exploits. That's right, walking up to a river of lava in LS with your fae, jumping, and floating across the river is an exploit.

When you generalize it like that, the word becomes so inclusive as to lose all meaning. Suddenly every fae who uses their fae fall for something other than avoiding falling damage is an exploiter. Anyone who dies halfway to where they're going and revives at their destination is an exploiter. Anyone who discovers a creative new use for any ability and item in the game, or thinks up an innovative strategy for defeating an encounter that clearly wasn't the way the dev originally envisioned it being beaten, is an exploiter. The sole defining feature of an exploit, according to Pinski, is the fact that a dev didn't think that someone might use it that way.

I call bullshit. No, more than bullshit, I call complete and utter fuckmuppetry. An exploit is something that is /broken/. A quest that you can gank over and over for unlimited exp is broken. A mob that you can trap in geometry is broken. Anything that is not functioning according to its design or description is broken.

This isn't broken. The item is functioning as intended. It's just being put to a legitimate use, while still functioning as intended, that was not foreseen.

Dev is nerfing it. That's fine with me. But allowing people like Pinski to dumb down the definition of "exploit" just discourages people from innovating and thinking up creative ways to work within the system.

Pinski · 11-21-2007, 02:31 PM

If it was intended, it wouldn't be getting changed.

The entire way everybody kills Throne Room Mayong is a huge fucking exploit that we continually work around. Is it a big enough exploit for people to get suspended over? No, was it a big enough exploit for it to be changed? Yes, it was changed 3 times in fact. First time you could pet pull to zone in, and kill him there. Second time you have to have an out of group pet class pull Mayong while you killed the x2s. Third time, you needed to chain pull with 2 out of group pet classes since he would continue to attempt to attack you as often as you were engaged with an x2. Did anybody get suspended for it? No, is it an exploit? Hell yes. Are you going to tell me that is a "strategy" that is legit? If so, then you're dumb. Everybody know it's an exploit and completely shady and dumb, but that's the only way people had managed to kill the mob.