Valuing Troub gear (shoulders)

Sappho · 06-14-2009, 05:38 AM

Hi,

I'm wondering how to value these two shoulders:

\aITEM -1873557390 -19635907:Harmonic Museweave Spaulders\/a

vs.

\aITEM -1771850385 -184426775:Mantle of Magnetism\/a

The Mantle of Magnetism is valued pretty highly in the TSO loot list that is stickied. And it has much better stats/resists, but the T2 shard armor shoulders grant +8% damage to spells/CAs which seems pretty damn good.

The question really boils down to the one that was asked in that loot thread by Poncho, how do you value Troub gear? I've read the dirges guide to success which values DA > MC > SC and so on... and depending upon the troubs I talk to some value DA and MC over spell crt and some seem to think that spell crit is the bees knees. What is the general consensus?

So back to the original question is 100 spell and CA damage > 3 SC, 3 MC, 2 crit mit, and 8% base spell and CA damage and if so is it better by enough to outweigh the stats/resist advantage that the Magnetism shoulders has?

edit: Upon further consideration, the above comparison isn't entirely fair. The magnetism pieces are hugely valuable for the 2 piece set bonus of removing the cost of Alin's, i.e. the hate song. I always run this song in raids and almost always in groups. Having an extra conc slot is huge and I have a feeling that is why the Magnetism item ranks so highly in the stickied loot list. That said I'm still interested in hearing other folks opinions.

thanks,
Sappho

Ruon · 06-14-2009, 06:16 AM

well, in my limited experience, so far, my damage has been heavily consisting of melee damage, even in the caster group. I cannot parse near what alot of the troubs in the parse thread can, but what I have seen on their parses, the bulk of their DPS is still from CA and auto attack damage.

I was hoping to have a answer from some of the veterans on this forum in a post i made several days ago asking what some of the others with better gear could parse if they were set up with spell crit gear and parsing from ranged.

I dont have alot of spell crit/cast speed/reuse speed gear even though I have been trying to find some...so at this current point I can only do about 60% of my normal parses when I am hanging back from ranged nuking.

being our only full time troub and the only one with a mythical, it hurts the raids parse when i die from a AOE, so I am considering going full caster gear and hanging a safe distance. Alot of the TSO mobs either have nasty AOE's or a frontal, and if one of the other scouts accidentally pulls, I die...I dont have enough crit mit at the moment...I was kind of hoping someone with more experience could let me know the answer to the question you are asking...if spell crit and damage is worth more than melee stats.

so far though, from what I have seen from my own parses and from some of the better troubs in the parse thread, it seems like the bulk of our dps is from melee.

Gulpen · 06-15-2009, 03:01 PM

You are asking if VP arms are better than arms with 8% spell and ca? Really?

this thread makes me sad

Vuetee · 06-16-2009, 09:33 AM

A few points I would like to make:

- DA>MC>SC>dps or whatever is partially due to our myth (dirges).
- 100 spell + CA isn't all that much when you look at your abilities
- 8 Base Spell etc is almost as good as choker

examine this:
\aITEM -1478755540 1371701413 -1333622643:[Lamentation of the Intrepid]\/a

Look at Intrepid strike, this is what makes MC<DA for dirges. I'm not sure what it's like for Troubs, but intrepid strike is up over half the time for us... so MC is of very little importance (although it's placed higher than SC as half our autoattack critting is more important than all our spells critting... if ya get me). My reconing is that DA>MC for u guys still, but not as much so as it is for us. (we have the little statement to put MC into place more than anything else).

Next, examine:
\aITEM -1296654864 -198550402 628222413:[Bloodthirsty Choker]\/a
\aITEM -1873557390 -19635907:[Harmonic Museweave Spaulders]\/a

Notice how the abilities are the same more or less, but the shoulders don't have that sodding lifeburn. Shoulders are just like a mini choker (or better choker when you have the T4 ones)... so they should be first. I put my Captains shoulders on unless I have >90 DA though (it's relative to what's in grp), basically if my DA will go over 100 at any point I take em off and replace with T2, and when I get T3 I will be replacing the shoulders fullstop for the T3 ones.

And thirdly, take any shoulders off, examine any spell, note the high end dmg, then put ur VP ones on, note the high end dmg, then put your T2 ones on, note the high end dmg. My penetrating shriek goes from 2902 to 3088 when just equipping my T2 from nothing.

try testing things in future... when querying items, ask what you're trying to achieve. If it's something like spell + CA damage, then examine the spells under 2 different conditions.

If you're testing DPS mod, do /we... etc...

Ogelia · 06-16-2009, 11:14 AM

Wall about dirge myth its little OP, trouby is little crap. And + 8% base dmg is great it have effect on all proc ( not after GU52) and on my trouby proc makes realy important part of dps

Sappho · 06-16-2009, 05:43 PM

So yes, if solo'ing then the T2 is obviously better, but when you are in a group/raid the ability to run an extra buff may well outweigh extra damage from me.

Damage from Perfect Shrill VII Master (formerly Reverberating Shrill)

Code:

With no shoulders:        2059 - 3202
With Magnetism Shoulders: 2173 - 3326
With T2 Shoulders:        2165 - 3378

So when wearing the T2 the high end goes up by 52 points over wearing the Magnetism shoulers. That translates to 78 more damage on a crit (assuming a 1.5 crit mod). This is a 1.54% difference, not an 8% difference. Note that the low end is a tiny bit higher with the Magnetism shoulders, but because of crits that isn't particularly important.

Running with the VP gear on (I only have the boots and shoulders at this point), I can give the group an extra 100-150 str/sta or something along those lines. Hence the conundrum. Of course I also have to do this calculation for equipping the Boots of Magnetism over the T2 boots because they also lose out. Pretty much any other pieces of the VP troub set would be better than the boots and shoulders, ah well.

Gulpen, I'm sure you are a troub god, and I do appreciate your input. I admit I'm a troub noob, which is why I'm here seeking council. The confusing bit is that the mangle of magnetism is ranked 3rd in the bit TSO loot list in this forum with little indication as to where the various tiers of shard armor should go. After a closer look I am actually a surprised that there isn't a bigger damage difference between the T2 and the Mantle of Magnetism. I'd be happy to hear something more than just 'omfg what a newb /cryupplsuck' from you.

Vuetee, thanks for the great reply. I didn't realize how the proc on the dirge epic works, I can see why getting as many attacks as possible is pretty key there. I'll have to go back and reread the dirge guide to success thread again.

I did actually look at the high end damage before, but it wasn't conclusive to me on first glance, doing the math above actually made me realize that the amount of damage I lose from using the T2 isn't as bad as I thought. As I get better gear the disparity will increase though.

So I think that when I'm raiding and am feeling strapped for running another buff I'll pop my two pieces of VP gear on and parse maybe 4% lower, but be better able to support my group.

Sappho

edit: added conclusion.

Gulpen · 06-16-2009, 06:47 PM

The 8% base dmg arms are the second best arms in the game period. The best being the 12% ones.

As for your desire to have an extra song running it really is meaningless. Especially the STR/STA song since most people are capped on str and the sta is a marginal hp boost. The only songs that you need to run basically at all times are Deagro, aria, your conc free agi/int self buff, and haste for your personal dps. The rest are entirely up to you if you want to run them based on group makeup and the mobs you are fighting.