Spell DPS/efficiency... - Page 2

LightCC · 08-12-2008, 04:03 AM

While testing the SD Cap stuff above, I noticed that Gift will proc off of root (poison based? Really?). Also, other hostile spell-based procs will trigger off root (Praetor's Strike, Acid Rain).

I also noticed in a recent raid that Aura will trigger off of any hostile spell on the mob - it doesn't have to be the warlock casting the hostile spells on the mob (damage is still attributed to the warlock, right?). This makes it much more acceptable as a pseudo-dot, but it still makes no sense at all that the SD is based on a single trigger and then normalized across all three triggers...

Does Netherealm act like this as well (any hostile spell of appropriate type from any player in a group/raid will trigger it once it's on the mob), or does the warlock have to cast the hostile spell that sets off one trigger of netherealm that is on the mob?

Reuse is becoming more favorable to me as I consider a couple things. Focused casting seems to increase the reuse of spells that are refreshing, while it is up. (doubles the time gain for the 15s it is up), it also seems to half the duration of dots that are up (or cast?) while it's up. So reuse increases increase the reuse of FC, which is a major dps contributor. It also increases the reuse of big damage spells like broodlings, Arma, and ones I often cast pre-pull or during the pull like Gift, Netherealm, and Acid Storm. When discussing dps we can't just look at a straight fight, we also need to look at how often some of these big hitters will be up during trash fights, since so much emphasis is placed on zonewide parses. The more trash mobs these big spells are ready for at the start of the fight the better the zonewides will be... with many trash mob fights in the 20-30s range for fights and with often close to constant pulling, reuse becomes pretty important to stay at the top of your game.

Still not sure what number to put on it - that's going to be highly situational...

LightCC · 08-17-2008, 06:26 PM

Been testing Broodlings and Acid Storm.

It appears that stats (INT/crit/+SD) do not affect their damage at all. They have a base crit chance of 1%. They cannot be affected by freehand sorcery or any other types of mods. Bard group buffs do not affect them (at least the crit buffs don't).

However, parses prove that mob debuffs do increase their damage the same way it increases player damage (up to around 50% fully debuffed).

Another thing I noticed is that Acid Storm will not be attacked/targetted by the mob. While I know in raids they can die from aoes, if you root a mob it will not target the acid storm pet/mob (it will target and kill the broodlings).

I think that about finishes up the final piece of damage data for my spreadsheet... Should be able to actually start posting useful results shortly.

LightCC · 08-23-2008, 04:16 AM

EDIT: Added numbers for mythical bump to encounter aoes... Please note haven't added effect of procs at all (item or buff procs), and also these are all masters... A3s will be roughly 14% less dps per spell.

EDIT #2: Fixed Vacuum Chamber numbers. Please note that the 'w/mythical' numbers only add the 30% base damage for the clicky, they do not also add the 10% base dmg on crit, which would benefit all spells.

Ok, first pass. This is dps efficiency for warlock spells based on the following stats:

1 mob, 50% cast haste, 0% recovery haste
1050 INT, 60% Crit, 6% base dmg mod, 700 +SD

Which is roughly where I find myself raid buffed with most, but not all pre-VP, pre-mythical gear that can be had (no choker, no pink hat, no RE cloak/bracelet, etc.)

I've bumped everything up to Master 1 for comparison, and still don't have numbers for Netherbeast (leaving the T7 numbers in for now). Broodlings are showns with an assumption of instant conversion of the DOT to the broodlings before the 1st DoT tick, and with the broodlings lasting varying amounts of time before dying to an AoE. All other spells assume full duration on dot/pet components.

Note also that this assumes all dps AAs are in place - +10% damage for all aoes (even radiation) and dissolve, increased reuse/duration/cast speed on the DoTs, gift, and neatherealm, etc.

Ok, the table didn't paste right from Excel, so here it is by hand:

Broodlings, 27 s: 4824
Gift of Bertoxulous: 4443
Armageddon w/mythical: 4176
Aura of Void: 3836
Neatherealm: 3766
Acid Storm: 3520
Armageddon: 3333
Netherlord (T7): 2808
Broodlings, 12 s: 2769
Distortion: 2632
Flames of Velious: 2539
Vacuum Chamber: 2368
Acid (M2**): 2352
Master Strike: 2296
Encase: 2095
Absolution w/mythical: 2065
Upheaval: 2061
Cataclysm: 1716
Absolution: 1656
Dissolve: 1556
Radiation w/mythical: 1222
Broodlings, 3 s: 1206
Radiation: 990

Just as a two first comparison points, here is what happens when you get TC (+20% cast haste to 70%, and recovery from 0% to 40%). TC roughly gives a 20% dps boost:

Broodlings, 27 s: 5767
Gift of Bert: 5685
Armageddon w/mythical: 4879
Aura of Void: 4734
Netherealm: 4502
Acid Storm: 4113
Armageddon: 3894
Netherlord: 3357
Broodlings, 12 s: 3310
Distortion: 3121
Flames of Velious: 3035
Acid (M2**): 2903
Vacuum Chamber: 2830
Master Strike: 2745
Encase: 2505
Absolution w/mythical: 2413
Upheaval: 2395
Cataclysm: 2051
Absolution: 1935
Dissolve: 1860
Broodlings, 3 s: 1442
Radiation w/mythical: 1440
Radiation: 1167

and what happens when you have focused casting up (capped cast haste/recovery at 100%):

Gift of Bert: 7405
Broodlings, 27 s: 7076
Aura of Void: 5967
Armageddon w/mythical: 5877
Netherealm: 5524
Acid Storm: 4953
Armageddon: 4690
Netherlord: 4119
Broodlings, 12 s: 4061
Distortion: 3802
Flames of Velious: 3724
Acid(M2**): 3659
Vacuum Chamber: 3472
Master Strike: 3368
Encase: 3073
Absolution w/mythical: 2907
Upheaval: 2873
Cataclysm: 2517
Absolution: 2331
Dissolve: 2281
Broodlings, 3 s: 1769
Radiation w/mythical: 1746
Radiation: 1414

or roughly another 26% over TC in this case (or 46% from the first case)

Note that Gift of Bertoxxulous would actually go up considerably more than shown, because faster casting/recovery causes more procs to occur during it's duration. The given numbers are based on an average of one proc every 2.3 seconds. On the other side, FC would only be up for 15 s of Gifts 45 s duration (with AAs).

Also note that Gift is the only spell that actually changes order in this table with just these changes to cast/recovery haste...

Saltaf · 08-23-2008, 12:07 PM

Broodlings aren't that high anymore, i'll have to run some numbers soon.

LightCC · 08-23-2008, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saltaf

Broodlings aren't that high anymore, i'll have to run some numbers soon.

The broodling numbers should basically stay the same regardless of your gear (only the initial hit of the dot will go up). Since I based this on decent pre-VP gear only... I can rerun the numbers for someone with VP/mythical/Avatar loot and everything else will go up a lot with broodlings basically staying at the same dps...

Also, I did put 3 cases for broodlings in - where the broodlings last the full duration (27 s or 9 attacks), where they last 12 s, and where they just get in 1 attack. Note that if they only get in one attack its awful dps, around the same as dissolve...

TheOtherDude · 08-23-2008, 05:15 PM

How'd you get Gift so high? Looks like you're assuming around 20 procs, but I'd be surprised to get more than 13 or so. Perhaps it's just due to a difference in our casting orders.

Also, you may want to consider that Broodlings has two chances to be resisted (unlike Acid Storm or any of our other spells). The initial Dark Infestation is resistable, and then the damage from the dumbfires is resistable as well.

Also, not sure exactly why Vacuum Chamber is ahead of Velious in your calculations, but it's the opposite in mine...could be a mistake on my side or something. You doubled the cold damage Velious does instead of using the incorrect heat damage value, right?

There are a few other differences like that, but generally your numbers look similar to my rough ones.

Saltaf · 08-24-2008, 01:29 AM

I haven't done my data collecting yet but I have a guess as to why your broodlings is so high.

I would assume you are collecting broodling dmg based on average dmg amounts on some sort of trash and taking values for spells based on their shown value on the spell.

could be a cause for variable data... Will look at some stuff when I have some time

LightCC · 08-24-2008, 03:45 AM

Responses in blue within your quotations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOtherDude

How'd you get Gift so high? Looks like you're assuming around 20 procs, but I'd be surprised to get more than 13 or so. Perhaps it's just due to a difference in our casting orders.

You are right, I'm using 20. That assumes a full duration of 45 s (5 AAs into Gift). I originally had it around 13, but after finding out that it is triggered by more spells than I realized, I moved it up.

And since cast/recovery haste changes how many spells you are casting, it will actually increase or decrease with TC, FC and gear/raid buffs that add cast haste, more than just the raw cast time of Gift itself would dictate.

Looking at 50% cast haste, 0% recovery, I have 20 procs in 45 s, out of 24 spells cast, I think that's a bit high. I'll need to double check this, but the point is - the number of procs will change as your cast/recovery haste does, and depending on your exact casting order and spells used (some spells don't trigger gift but otherwise generally the more short-casting spells the better). This is probably the trickest spell to nail down.

Also, you may want to consider that Broodlings has two chances to be resisted (unlike Acid Storm or any of our other spells). The initial Dark Infestation is resistable, and then the damage from the dumbfires is resistable as well.

For the moment I'm doing this with ideal numbers, but you are right, pets and also now I'm learning possibly item procs and even maybe spell procs may have a lower hit rate (slightly higher resist rates).

I haven't factored in resists or debuff effects on mobs, as I was thinking it would equally affect all spells, but since there are some that will have different rates, this is a valid point, especially the 'double resist' effect, although the broodling resist rate, if it can be consolidated to an average, can be easily added by simply reducing the average damage they do.

This is similar to the consideration that 1 broodling may end up in front of the mob and die quicker due to a frontal, since the broodlings normally spread out into a circle around the mob... you would just need to pick an average life of all the broodlings over all to get the correct numbers to use.

Also, not sure exactly why Vacuum Chamber is ahead of Velious in your calculations, but it's the opposite in mine...could be a mistake on my side or something. You doubled the cold damage Velious does instead of using the incorrect heat damage value, right?

I did have an error in Vacuum Chamber that I found after I posted these numbers. It relates to a bug in the UI - if you lookup a spell scroll/book on the broker and look at the stats, then change your equipment - the stats on the broker book tooltip will not change to match your equipment until you hit the search button to pull the book/scroll back up. I didn't have Vacuum Chamber A3 at the time because it was just a few percent higher than my War Pyre master... so I was pulling tooltip data from the broker. I since have acquired a Vacuum Chamber master.

I just rechecked case 1 and it drops Vacuum Chamber from 2540 to 2368. I believe Flames of Velious is correct (that one took a while to get in right since it's essentially a dot with one tick that applies full SD to each tick). I'll edit the post with the fixed numbers for Vacuum Chamber.

There are a few other differences like that, but generally your numbers look similar to my rough ones.

LightCC · 08-24-2008, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saltaf

I haven't done my data collecting yet but I have a guess as to why your broodlings is so high.

I would assume you are collecting broodling dmg based on average dmg amounts on some sort of trash and taking values for spells based on their shown value on the spell.

could be a cause for variable data... Will look at some stuff when I have some time

I did the original gathering on greens/blues in JW. It matched other data I did on grays back before I was 80. I then doubled checked it with raid data on primarily yellows, maybe some whites (some SoH trash is white I believe), and an orange or two. The minimum damage doesn't change, and the max damage appears to be the same - it can be difficult to tell because some hits are with the mobs debuffed and some are not. But the data had enough crits (and min crits) to just barely prove to me that the ranges remained the same.

This isn't to say that the distribution within the range doesn't shift, or that resists of the broodlings isn't higher with yellows, or something like that. But I"m fairly certain the base damage range remains the same (and that they get the benefit of the up to 50% additional damage from a debuffed mob).

LightCC · 08-26-2008, 01:07 AM

Raid parses show me triggering Gift everywhere from about 8 times up to 18 times. It averaged about 12-13 times, but I normally precast this, so probably lose around 2 triggers on average. That's with 57% cast haste and 0% recovery, but sometimes FC will be cast during Gift. So I'd say TheOtherDude is probably right on the money once again using 14 for a full duration of Gift with full AAs.