The NGD vs. Non-NGD thread

[LFG]

Originally Posted by Darammer

'Course, I don't have the vitriol that some of y'all have; getting as upset as you seem to be over a message board, especially a forum like NGD, boggles the mind.

It's because about 50% of the fun of playing a MMO involves forum participation, at least for me it does, and I suspect that's true for many others.

And for people like me who play the game very seriously for the purpose of being in the top worldwide, we tend to post just as hard and seriously.

I don't never say that what other people enjoy doing is right or wrong. I always admitted that I never understood NGD people or that forum. I wouldn't except them to understand me or my interests either, truly we seem different. But I believe we can coexist by talking about these differences as we are doing now, and that the greater understanding and respect for each others rights that we hopefully develop will improve EQ2 for all of us. That's all I want.

[RadarX]

Originally Posted by LFG

Thank you for your thoughtful response. Sincerely.

I very much agree with your point about who cares who the mods are. I don't care except when it affects me. I'm actually sorry that all this information became public and caused grief for so many.

But, did SoE actually think this would remain secret forever? The EQ2 staff is populated by many smart and intelligent people. I struggle to understand why they didn't realize that it isn't the best idea to put foxes in charge of a hen house, as stated by the "soe inside" poster.

In my opinion, they should have made a rule for the mod program similar to the rule in the guide program. The guide program rule is that you can't serve as a guide on the same server as your regular characters. The mod rule should be that you can't post as a regular player in the same forums that you moderate. As far as I'm concerned, anything less is an unacceptable conflict of interest. If you want to be an infamous loudmouth like me, you should not be allowed to argue with people as a player, and then moderate them in an official capacity to win your argument. Even if anyone denies that was happening, it is the possibility and appearance of impropriety that creates a conflict of intererence. They teach these concepts in freshman college philosophy courses, why do they seem unknown at SoE?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I hear you saying that mods should be allowed to post and moderate all forums. I think I also hear you saying that it is beneficial when a mod knows the people and subjects being discussed, because that helps them be a better mod. But I believe you are also saying that a basic familiarity with raiding issues has no relevance to moderating raiding discussions and raiders. I do not mean to put words in your mouth, but don't you see the inconsistency of that?

So NGD regulars who are mods should be allowed to moderate NGD, since that's a benefit, but there are no mods (except Gaige allegedly, and I don't know about that because we've never talked about it) who know the people and issues being discussed in the sections where people usually talked about raiding topics?

With the names outted in the first page of the other post, I ask you to look at something made easily possible by the EQ2 forum search tool. How does it make sense to you that the people named as mods, who were the most active modders in raiding posts, don't even have a level 70 character, or aren't in a raid guild? Honestly, that makes no sense to me at all, and I believe is inconsistent with your entire premise. They made frequent mod decisions about things they didn't understand, and that I just don't believe they would have made had they understood the issues being discussed.

BTW, I never had an issue with NGD having different rules than the other forums, per se. My problem was that I couldn't get that same deal with respect to a raiding forum where we could have hardcore serious discussions about raiding issues in the same manner that NGD posters could be equally hardcore about doing whatever it was that they did in NGD. I made three seperate requests for a raiding forum in the proper sections of the EQ2 forums. Two of those requests were ignored and disappeared into oblivion, one was specifically denied by Blackguard, who said he felt it wasn't needed.

It wasn't needed? Our discussions about technical raiding issues were being interrupted by people who don't have a high level character and have never raided, and we can't tell them they don't know what they are talking about without being moderated? Come on, that just isn't right.

In the end, I agree that SoE is a corporation and must moderate its forums. I never had a problem with that. But at the same time the new mods were put in place, the rules all seemed to become more strict, or at least much more strictly enforced. And then many of us felt that we no longer enjoyed the EQ2 forums, and felt suffocated when we tried to post there.

Yup a lot of grief has been caused by the allegations I'm sure. Honestly? I'm hoping SOE didn't think it'd stay under wraps forever. I mean stuff like that is going to leak out. Of course this leak in particular.... oldest source in the world. A scorned woman.

I don't give much credence to the "InsideSOE" poster. There are only 3 people that know the exact details of who the mods are and what they do and that doesn't match the posting style of any of them (and one of them is mentioned by name IN the post).

The issue I have with the "guide" rules, is now you've added an infrastructure to a program needing moderation everywhere. I could see maybe not being able to post in a thread you have a post in with your player account. Of couse this is all based on the assumption the mods are in fact players.

You are absolutely right. Arguementative people who debate, insult, and offend people with ease (like the two of us) should never at any point be a moderator.

I see what you're saying about the mods being familiar with subject matters. I think my point was, that posters if they became mods would be familiar with what was acceptable on the forums despite the subject matter. A thread on broken raid content should be no more difficult to moderate than a thread on a broken penis implant in NGD. It's either wrong or right. What benefit does a moderator familiar with raiding provide to a thread? If a thread is out of hand, it's out of hand and needs to be locked.

I agree and disagree with you on the NGD moderator thing (once again assuming your premise on who the mods are is correct). I think an individual modding NGD should be intimately familiar with NGD, but not be a frequent poster so they can be completely objective.

I don't see raiders opinions any more valuable than anyone elses and I remember that discussion. I have to ask are there that many broken things that can't be discussed in Gameplay, etc... or are they going to be people screaming for more raid content?

The more strict rules? Felt across the board including NGD. NGD has actually died down something fierce since that time. With the new mods in place, they stifled quite a bit of discussion that would've been around a lot longer. Whether that is good or bad is up for debate, but it is as it is.

[Nurta]

Originally Posted by Pronoia

Fwiw is an acronym for 'For What It's Worth'.

Oh, and just because I choose to post like a testosterone fuelled teenager doesn't necesarily mean I am. It just means that every now and then I get a kick out trash talking. I might be older than you think, or not.

Ahh and dangit I knew that I just forgot :D

And the point you just made in this post is exactly my posting mantra. Just b/c I post this way doesn't mean I AM this way. Like I said before I like you, you can join in anytime ;)

As to your age, I assume everyone is a pimply-faced-angsty-male who is about 16. It just makes it easier for me to vent, until I find out otherwise and then I'm forced to construct a more accurate image and find good material in that. Nice to meet you Pro.

[Darammer]

Actually Nurta is exactly this way. She enjoys making people cry IRL...

[Nurta]

Shut it you!
I thought you liked it when I did that Were you just lying so I'd stop? Fucking men, see that's why I'm gay.

[Pronoia]

Someone said <stuff> plus 'She enjoys making people cry IRL'

Oh noes, r u gonna maik me kry!!!1111

Here's a starter, I'm an anon pussy (your words I believe), ramp it up from there. I'll let you know how many tissues I've dampened once you're done.

I must warn you though, the last time I cried was when someone made a tactical bid causing me to lose all my DKP. Jesus, my eyes are welling up right now just thinking about it. Anyway, that's how motherfucking tuff I am. Do your worst.

Pro.

<Edit because I lack sufficient sentence construction skills to make myself understood>:

Nurta said:

Me patronising?!? LOL I do believe that's the first I've been called that, if you're judging me based on my posts to or about Amana then I guess I could see that.

I was referring to myself with the patronising comment - not you. I had just told you I believed your posts to be 'OK'. I would have hit the nuke button right there if I were you, maybe not in spite or hate but out of general principle. If I had actually activated a few grey cells when reading your post I would have spotted and corrected it then.

[Nurta]

You win b/c you have sufficiently confused the fuck out of me :confused:

[Savanja]

I don't get the whole "NGD vs the rest of the forums" thing. The NGD is serving it's purpose.

I think for a lot of people to get it, you'd have to know the history of the NGD. Waaayyyy back when Faarwolf and Blackguard modded in beta, we had a lot of overflow of off topicness, and so when the forums went live with release, we were given the NGD to off topic to our hearts content. It was understood at the time that the NGD had a different unofficial ruleset than a lot of the other forums. Faar wanted us to have a place where we could be goofy and talk about pie and other completely stupid topics. It wasn't for everyone, but off topic discussions were also allowed on the server forums, so if the NGD wasn't for you, you could always post your pie vs. cake quandries elsewhere.

During this time, this whole idea of a "clique" was born. Some of the reg posters of the forums stopped playing the game and discontinued their accounts. We were sad that we would lose touch, so an alternate forum was created off site (not unlike this site for bannees, just less people). It likely also didn't help that many of us joined the same guild, but I don't think it's unusual for people to find their guilds on the forums. I had been previously unguilded on AB, and at Promises and Homeslices invite, I joined Aggro Fish, as did a few other forum goers that wanted to try the new guild out.

But I do want to make clear, we were all forum posters that did not know each other at all previous to the NGD (except the creators of AF, which knew each other from SWG), and not all of us have gotten along perfectly. We have had catfights, arguments, and the such..but we are friends so we get over it. So I stand on my opinion that we don't "back each other up" in the NGD because we are friends, we are friends because we were of a like mind to begin with. People do generally migrate toward others that have similar interests and attitudes.


Up goes Blackguard, then in comes Raijinn. And I'll be the first to admit that the change in ranks, and the new ruleset threw me. Raijinn wanted a tighter ship, and this meant less garbage in the NGD and no off topic in the server forums. I actually have not agreed with these ideas, but it's not my place to make these rules, so I obviously have to follow the rules as well. The PvP forums (in case everyone else hadn't noticed) gets the rules a lil loose as well, far more than the NGD, because of the competitive nature of the forums. Which is totally cool. I think it's good that the red names recognize that some of the forums are different, and not all rules can be strictly applied to all forums.

Now today. The "clique" that everyone rages on about still boggles me. A lot of us are currently in different guilds, and while I work with Radar and Coyote, that's work and has zero to do with how I post. Do we sometimes feed off of each other? Heck yeah. Because, like I said before, we are of like mind which is why we all became friends to begin with. Is that bad? No. I see a lot of people on the PvP and the server forums do the same thing. It's typical of forums and I see plenty of the same thing here.

My posting habits in the NGD have changed drastically. The most prolific posters of the forum has changed and people have come and gone, but the idea remains the same. It's the nature of the forum NOT the people that post there. And just as relentless flaming will always happen on the PvP forums, pie will always happen on the NGD, regardless of who is posting there.

And for those that think we don't have to follow the same rules..some of us have recieved temp bans, and a lot of us have been warned sternly by red names. We walk the same line as everyone else.

[RadarX]

Originally Posted by Savanja

So I stand on my opinion that we don't "back each other up" in the NGD because we are friends, we are friends because we were of a like mind to begin with. .

I can say with 100% certainty if Savanja thinks I'm wrong, she has no problem telling me privately publicaly. Everyone in NGD is a free thinker to a point. Anyone who knows me, knows I usually go the path of least resistance because I don't enjoy one on one conflict (stop laughing). We have backed each other up in the past, and I can see the semblance of a "wolfpack" mentality, but the idea of a clique is so beyond absurd it's not even funny.

[SillyMonkey]

Originally Posted by RadarX

I can say with 100% certainty if Savanja thinks I'm wrong, she has no problem telling me privately publicaly. Everyone in NGD is a free thinker to a point. Anyone who knows me, knows I usually go the path of least resistance because I don't enjoy one on one conflict (stop laughing). We have backed each other up in the past, and I can see the semblance of a "wolfpack" mentality, but the idea of a clique is so beyond absurd it's not even funny.

In a nutshell Radar, you're an idiot and you're wrong.
Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.

Seriously, though, I agree with one of Sav's earlier statements. People of a like mind tend to congregate together. I will also add that friends will oft times come to the defense of other friends at the first sign of trouble, then slap them on the head later when they find out they were being a retard and deserved it. But for the most part, because like minds come together they often share the same opinions, with slightly different takes. I've had long convos with Radar about certain things and called him names during those convos. Sav has told me flat out in no uncertian terms that I'm wrong in some of my posts. Nurta has no qualms about not being gentle about it. And Dar just flat out hates me and thinks I'm an idiot... yet he still cops a feel every now and then. Hmmmmm. Anyways, the point is that just because people in the NGD share the same opinion on an overall view, it doesn't mean that we always back each other regardless.