It was brought to my attention that a couple people here had written of the Najena guild Knights of Honor and one of its guild leaders, Mavrin. Presently these messages are found at these locations:
http://www.eq2flames.com/carebear-co...g-asshole.html
http://www.eq2flames.com/your-guild-...ee-choice.html
While the manner in which they expressed themselves did not appear to meet with this community's approval, what they expressed is nonetheless true. Knights of Honor DOES suck and Mavrin IS a self-serving, hypocritical ass. But that's not to say that the guild sucks because the members suck in general. Many of their members are both good people and good players, they are just blissfully unaware of how unremarkable their guild truly is and in denial of how bad Mavrin is for it. I don't blame them for the overall state of their guild. Few of them have notable experience with guilds or raiding beyond the two guilds that most of them have in common, Magic and Might and Knights of Honor. Their belief that their guild is progessing such as to be 'competitive with actual raiding guilds' is an inductive generalization based on an inadequate sample. I do, however, blame them for allowing Mavrin to continue to cost their guild undeniable assets and to continue to piss all over other people's fun. And so I'm posting here rather than in RAR. Some bear more blame than others, but ultimately, collectively they are responsible for the guild as it is. Silence is complicity.
When we'd formed the guild we had nearly unanimously agreed that we'd forgo the typical guild structure in favor of an Arthurian-style round table. This decision was the direct inspiration for the name. The whole point of the exercise was to create and maintain a guild that wasn't any of the things we had collectively disliked about our former guilds. The initially proposed nameds ranged from the whimsical 'Hot Summer Knights' to the somber 'Knights of Virtue.' We put several candidates up for a vote and the name 'Knights of Honor' won.
Initially three of us held the top rank; Mavrin, Luthiel and me. I did not behave as a traditional guild leader because that would have run contrary to the core concept. I waited patiently to respond to the will of the majority. Mavrin and Luthiel, however, took immediately to making changes to guild settings, granting or denying privileges, consuming guild assets, and more, without any input whatsoever from the membership. Most of us were easy going and perfectly okay with anyone having their fun as long as it didn't prevent someone else from having theirs. So no one seemed overly concerned that Mavrin and Luthiel seemed to be redefining their roles on the fly. They were, after all, just little changes really. The trouble with even little changes, though, is that if they keep coming they may coalesce into big changes.
Ever have a building go up in your neighborhood and it just doesn't really sink in until it nears completion? I mean, you see the empty lot is no longer empty, and you may even stop for heavy equipment making its way onto the lot, but it just doesn't fully register as a building until one day it has taken enough form that it's 'wow, where the hell did that building come from?' The changes in Knights of Honor were like that. A general awareness of change but log in one day and it's almost as if you logged into the wrong guild somehow.
Mavrin was no longer just at the round table, he'd put himself at the head of it. A rather curious feat to be sure, given that there is no such place at a round table, which is precisely the whole point of it. But like the cartoon character unbound by gravity because they are oblivious to it, he put himself there anyway. And the longer he sat there the less the guild was like we'd collectively meant it to be. Mavrin became increasingly dictatorial, intolerant and derisive. Argue with his choice of raid zone for the day and you risked him not logging in, or sitting you out, or taking some other petty, vindictive action the following day. And he was saying virtually nothing useful or constructive in officer chat. He seemed to use it most often for mocking, ridiculing and insulting the membership behind their backs. This person is too needy, that one's an idiot, that one's a retard, that one's a moron, and so on, and on and on. Undoubtedly it was not coincidence that the only member never the subject of Mavrin's vituperation was Luthiel, the only member I'd never once heard disagree with him.
I had considered many of those people friends and I quickly tired of Mavrin's constantly trashing them. Especially since this was a guy who, when we were all in Magic and Might together, had complained that Magic and Might officers, he believed, used officer chat to talk about us behind our backs. Anymore, the moment I logged in I would be inundated with messages about the latest thing Mavrin had done, and treated immediately to Mavrin's caustic remarks about whomever was unhappy about it. He'd cancel someone's mythical update and insist on raiding Thuuga or The Execution Throne Room when no one needed anything from those places. You know Thuuga, that place with plenty of mobs but only one chest, no remarkable loot and no guild status? And The Execution Throne Room, pretty much just like Thuuga, but with a little status? He'd decide TPR was the only viable target when everyone else wanted to try ToMC. Many of members wanted to know what had happened to us deciding together what to raid. And then as if to drive it all home on a more personal note, he AGAIN cancelled the fight against the one mob in VP that I really wanted to kill, Nexona.
To me it was clearly time to take steps to return to the path we'd agreed to set out on. And so I sent this letter out to the guild:
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From Fuzzybunny:
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Greetings and salutations knights,
I would like to take this moment to address what many of us agree is a problem with OUR guild. Namely, too often it doesn't seem like OUR guild. WE talked together and decided to leave OUR previous guild to create this one. WE decided TOGETHER to do what WE wanted. I ADORED that moment. I propose that WE return to that fine tradition and behave as knights of a round table.
Without a doubt, Mavrin is an amazing tank. I greatly appreciate appreciate all he has done on OUR behalf. But I don't think it's best serving OUR interests for him to be at the head of all tables. He is currently main tank, guild leader, raid leader and group leader for virtually all the more interesting things we do. I believe that WE should see too it that no one wears so many hats. I think we have seen that it too easily allows for personal preference to influence OUR activities.
I propose that WE make a number of changes and make this the guild than many of US thought we were creating. First and foremost of these is that we reconsider the whole notion of leader. I do not believe we need an actual leader, just someone we trust with the in-game rank to adjust the guild settings that WE believe are appropriate. I believe we can and should manage our affairs democratically. I propose that we establish a single, guiding rule, set in stone, that whenever enough people are on for a full X4 raid force (24) we consider that adequate representation of us all to manage the affairs of the guild by way of majority vote. Furthermore, I propose that when a member wishes for the guild to perform some collective action they put forth a motion that, if seconded, is put to a vote. I propose to that end that we establish or redefine a specific rank as one authorized to call for and recognize motions and handle subsequent votes. I further propose that we elect these individuals.
I personally like the idea of multiple people holding the rank of guild leader. I believe it protects the future of the guild as we're not all stuck if a specific person doesn't log in. I suggest that we continue to have three guild leaders, but I propose that we elect them and that they serve no other function than to manage the guild settings and resources as necessary for the guild to operate as WE have decided it should. For the same reason, I also like the idea of multiple raid leaders. I propose we elect three raid leaders and that we only accept as nominees people who hold no other office. I also propose that we discuss and vote on however many other ranks are necessary for us to operate in the manor described.
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End Transmission
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For the record, "is an amazing tank" was for the sake of diplomacy. Mavrin's response to my letter was to send out his own letter, 'meet' with his yes-men, call for a guild meeting in in-game guild voice chat, turn off notifications for demotions, demote me and then mute me in the meeting about why I had been demoted. One of the way-up-his-ass crew made out like I wasn't speaking because I had nothing I could say in my defense, what with being so guilt-ridden over the horrible crime of suggesting that we actualy do what we'd said we'd do. When I was looking into why no one could hear me I noticed that I had been moderator muted and I mentioned that in guild chat. Mavrin and Company acted like it was a complete mystery how that had happened and as if there was nothing they could to do correct it. I left guild chat and returned, then logged and returned, to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I was clearly still getting mod_muted. At that point I was just done. I typed that I was leaving, and what had been the proverbial last straws, wished everyone good luck and removed myself from the guild. And then I read the letter he had sent before the meeting, subject 'The Response':
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From Mavrin:
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1. We are Knights of the Round Table but Arthur is still King which means success or failure is my burden greater then any others.
I value every single members toons as much as my own and will never needlessly kill anyone.
2. We will not be holding popularity contests to decide leadership they dont work in high school they dont work in EQ.
3. We've been working on a charter for awhile now its still being polished this hasnt been kept a secret.
4. This guild is only 2 months old and we've killed levi cleared vp to nexona, cleared most of woe, sisters in hate. We are a casual guild with no set raid force or mandatory attendance policy but we're competitive with actual raiding guilds.
5. We all like drama free guilds several people who created drama went the way of the dodo and needed to to keep us moving forward and to prevent us wasting time dealing with whining, mostly over loot they wanted.
6. We as a guild have pretty high standards of conduct and Officers more so as they are here to set the example above anyone else.
7. We always take into consideration members and officers suggestions and wishes if they're actionable we respond to them as able.
8. Officers are selected by a vote of the other officers and myself I don't just decide I like mike and poof insta officer.
9. By the same token Officers can similiarly lose thier jobs by majority vote of the other officers.
This Guild in particular is built on trust and faith in each other. There are right ways to affect change when its needed.
The letter that was sent out guild wide without discussion with any other officer did nothing but create drama where none was needed. The bottom line on that letter was I couldnt be over ruled on going after nexona when we had zero chance of success.
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End Transmission
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I take issue with all of his talking points, so here's my own little numbered list:
1. The 'my burden greater than any others' martyr bullshit. Could you be more melodramatic? You're a guild leader in a GAME. Oh, woe is you. But hey, thanks for saving people from pretend death. It could have cost them play money, not to mention chimerical Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Can you imagine all the pretend bills from the apocryphal psychiatrists? They would be outrageous!
2. The likening of a democratic process among a group of adults to a popularity contest among juveniles. Pray tell, oh burdened one, how are they comparable? Democracy is good enough for electing people to run the country but not for electing people to run something really important, like a guild in a game?? Could you be any more arrogant and insulting to EVERYONE else's intelligence? YOU are the ONLY person capable of determining what fights the guild can or can't win? If you're all that fired up good, how is it you're flagged for fewer zones than others of us? Why was my toon always zoning us into CoD? If you had balls enough to be honest about it you'd admit that the real reason you opposed elections is that you feared you wouldn't get elected.
3. The charter that wasn't a secret. I never saw it nor contributed to it. That it was purportedly in the works wasn't a secret but its contributors and content sure were. But that wouldn't stop Mavrin from enforcing its rules.
4. Competitive with actual raiding guilds? Let's put the 'progress' in context. A few months ago Magic and Might had a raid force that was clearing TPR, Thuuga, PB and CoD, clearing VP (sic) up to Nexona, SoH up to the Maestro, clearing WoE to Dayakara, killing the zone-in area trash in PoA and taking down the first named in ToMC. Most of the active raiders quit when a number of the more proactive raiders were booted. Together we formed Knights of Honor. Instantly 23 members with at least some raiding gear and experience. It's not as if they had started with a handful of naked, raw recruits. Although personally, I'd have been okay with the 'naked' part. And so what are they doing now? Clearing TPR, Thuuga, PB and CoD, clearing VP up to Nexona, SoH up to the Maestro, WoE up to Captain Grush, killing zone-in area trash in PoA and clearing the trash up to the first named in ToMC. OMG, that's amazing progress!! Kudos to Mavrin for taking 23 raiders and only three months to get them to a full raid force and right back where they'd been three months prior. Well, except for the whole 'can no longer take down even the first named in ToMC' thing. And in WoE they couldn't get past Captain Grush a month before I left and still can't get past him a month after I left. Two months, can't get as far in WoE as many pick-up raids. Competitive with actual raiding guilds? Dude, wake up.
5. It isn't 'drama' when the only person in the guild getting all bent out of shape over it is you. But it's priceless to read of drama from one so melodramatic. Perhaps it's a side-effect of all the terrible pressures brought to bear by being a pretend leader of an imaginary organization IN A GAME.
6. 'High standards of conduct' apparently include turning off demotion messages before you demote a fellow GL, muting people who might utter pesky truths in your propaganda session, not involving the 'guilty' party in any discussions before, during or after punitive action deemed necessary over an expression of opinion treated like an attempted coup, according to rules in a document that no one had seen let alone ratified. Words are not behavior. Ideas are not actions. An appropriate response would have been a rebuttal, something resembling a reasoned argument. A response IN KIND.
7. He flipped over the 'm' in 'me' so now it's confusingly similar to a word referring to 'us'. By "if they're actionable' he really means "if it's what I want to do." The only real 'we' with Mavrin is him and the voices in his head.
8. I 'voted' for two members to become officers and neither did. All other officers were 'voted' on while the majority of officers were offline. His common defense of such practices was to point out a fact that he conveniently forgets for his points numbers 6, 8 and 9; there were no rules yet.
9. Trying to make a childish overreaction to text appear as a pressing concern amongst the majority. And suddenly popularity contests are okay. What happened to "they dont work in high school they dont work in EQ"? And what sort of vote could it have been anyway? The letter went out BEFORE he met with the yes-men, BEFORE I was demoted and BEFORE the meeting took place. And where the hell did he get all these rules anyway? WE never agreed to them and WE shared a rank. And he JUST got through admitting that we didn't yet have any rules in his own point number 3. What do you call applying rules that don't officially exist and that only you know, Mavrin? What sort of round table is that?
The bottom line is that he's a self-serving, hypocritical asshole who's so full of shit he can't even keep his own bullshit straight. Most of what he complained about being wrong with Magic and Might he has brought to life in Knights of Honor. He had complained that Magic and Might raids could include bots that were allowed to roll on loot but he bots his wife's templar in the MT group, while other guild healers are available, and awards her toon DKP for it. He said he hated that in Magic and Might we might wait an hour for someone to log in, or that a raid might be cancelled or the target changed over a single player not logging in, but then does just the exact same thing. He said he had hated how in Magic and Might one person was allowed to change mains while another was not and has since let certain members change mains and continue to raid but told others not to expect a raiding spot if they changed mains. He had said that he hated when guild or raid leaders in Magic and Might didn't appear to listen to his ideas regarding a fight but he virtually never really listens to anyone's input on anything. For that reason they fight Digg in the center of his island instead of pulling him off on the bridge where the snake spawns like virtually everyone else does.
The Nexona referrence is a red herring. I could have had my mythical months before I did. Several friends had offered to arrange the update, even more had offered to buy it for me, and more often than not I had adequate platinum in the bank to buy it, but I wanted to get it in guild in the course of the guild's own progression. We had Nexona on the schedule. Several guild members would have rather been sleeping but they logged in specifically to help with Nexona, for me. We didn't have a full raid force online so some of us were checking with people on our friends lists to see who would help. A number of people on my list said they were up for it, including members of Disciples of Destiny, Dominatus, Nocturnal Wrath, Renaissance, Sabaki, Veni Vidi Vici and Vendetta, all of whom have beat Nexona (and it was in fact Vendetta who got me my Nexona update). But then a troubador in the MT group mentions that he just needed Druusk for his mythical and bam! Nexona cancelled, we're going after Druusk. No discussion, still need to bring in people from out of guild, just going after the mob we usually beat instead of the mob we hadn't beat. Mavrin wasn't willing to do even a single pull on Nexona because he said he knew we could't win. Damned straight, you can't win if you don't fight. Duh. But we damned sure could have won if we'd TRIED, with the talent that was willing to come help me. I opted out of the raid and instead ran some instances with some of those who had offered to help with Nexona. I'd had my fill of the self-proclaimed 'best paladin in the game.'
Attached are a srceen shot of the letter I sent out and the one Mavrin sent out in response, both as seen from my Shadow Knight's mailbox.
Re: Knights Of Honor Najena commuist or free choice?
